[Serious] Jews of Lemmy, what are your family conversations about the war like?
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I cannot defend the establishment of new settlements in taken territories. All I can say is palastine has had plenty of chances to maintain and keep their territories. Like I've said, Israel even tried to hand back large amounts of land, but that was jut followed by palistinian attack. Over and over again Hamas has decided that peace is not the way forward. I don't believe this is the fault of the average Palistinian though. I believe this is the fault of the palistinian leadership which uses these wars like a piggy bank. Robbing their people of billions in aid money while living in luxury in Quatar and other arab states. They're not waging these wars because they think they can win. They are doing it because they think they can profit. And I strongly believe, hell, I know, that Russia had a huge hand in pushing Hamas toward Oct 7 in order to distrac the west from Ukraine. If we're being honest, its was an absolutely masterful move by Putiin because, it 1. distracted from Ukraine and 2. split liberal voters in the west. And I think this really needs to be acknowledged a lot more than it is.
I'll say this though. I do not believe a two state solution is realistic or possible. The hatred of palistinians toward jews is just too systemically ingrained and indoctrinated. This system of indoctrination of Palistinian youth needs to be completely dismantled for there to be a lasting peace. And I don't think that will ever happen while a seperate (from Israel) Palastine exists. I think Israel knows this well, and what we're seeing now is Israel trying to unite the two lands through force. They are trying to end the war for good. Israel and Palestine need to be one nation. And arabs and Israelis need to learn to live in peace. It is the only sustainable path forward.
Not even Israel really believe the deals was great deal to Palestinians. Israel should give back all occupied land expect Israel it self of course unconditionally
Camp David was not the missed opportunity for the Palestinians, and if I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well. - Shlomo ben ami
The hatred of Palestinians toward jews is just too systemically ingrained and indoctrinated
This is exactly the same excuse people was saying to justify maintaining the apartheid in south Africa. They claimed that black people would get vengeance on white people .
There is many example of successful reconciliations between countries , population and groups in civil wars -
I'm going to give an honest answer, but i fully expect to be downvoted and demonized for doing so. Nothing I can do about that, but op, you want an honest answer, this is it. I'll also add that I would 100% consider myself leftist, in fact, extremely leftist in most of my views. Why the hell would my username be what it is and why the hell would I be on lemmy if I wasn't... anyway... here's the answer since you asked for it:
The large majority of jews I know, including myself and my family feel like this current war is the fault of Hamas. Oct 7 doesn't happen, this war doesn't happen. We also are continually annoyed by the fact that most people on the left, constantly refuse to acknowledge that Hamas has been pushing this war forward non-stop for decades. All you have to do is look up number of missiles launched at Israel since 2000 to see that. People no-doubt try to rebut this by saying "but Israel has been stealing territory". My constant response to that is they have been taking territory to establish buffer zones to enhance security. As almost all of this land has been taken after conflict. Israel even tried to give back some of this land, but was then attacked again, and had to take land back in order to protect itself -- But eventually our conversation just goes back to why this is even happening and we are always frustrated by the fact that any argument from the left condemning Zionists always begins in 1948 -- when in fact the troubles of the region started hundreds of years before that. This pre-1948 history seems to never be brought up however. So the blame is always cast 100% on jews and all of the attacks on Jewish civilians within Israel are never ever given the time of day.
It's incredibly frustrating and scary, because the narrative is fully turning into "jews are evil", and there is nothing any Jewish person can do about it. Jews are never going to willingly leave Israel and Hamas is never going to stop trying to eradicate jews. There are only 16ish million jews on the planet and almost 2 billion Muslims. There is no way jews could ever win this propaganda war. I think a lot of jews who feel they are on the left side of the political spectrum are too scared to even speak about their feelings on Israel/Palestine at the moment, because they know they are going to be vastly outnumbered and demonized, by those they would usually consider friends, with anything they say. So most of us are silent on the subject because we don't want to be ostracized.
I will end this by saying, we of course feel bad for civilians caught in the crossfire, but we feel like Jewish civilians are not given that same respect. The sentiment we get is that Jewish civilians seem to deserve it.
The Zionist cries in pain as they strike you
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Apologies in advance for the wall of text. We've had a lot of conversations....
Spouse is half Israeli with lots of family over there. I'm casually Jewish with AuDHD for context so we tend to see things really differently.
I personally don't like that religious countries exist in the first place. So I'm not only against Israel, but also most countries in that part of the world. "Just nuke that entire part of the world" has been mentioned quite a few times. So that's a bit of the conversation.
We tend to focus on the hostages when we talk about the war, and that Israel may be winning the ground war but it's losing the pr war.
We blame Bibi for keeping the war going and not making more surgical spy-type strikes. I used to say that he had one day to get the world behind him and say "look, this is what I've been talking about about!!!" That was all dismissed though when the first cease fire happened. Hamas broke it by sending some small numbers of missiles that got caught by the iron dome and Israel retaliated by sending 100x the number of missiles, killing several people. The news outlets all led with Israel sending the rockets and only briefly mentioned that Hamas struck first.
We blame Hamas for keeping all of their leaders in other countries and all of their weapons and missile silos in civilians backyards. Treating their citizens like shit and saying the only way their family is guaranteed to not go hungry is to join the military....
Just putting this out there .... If you're American and not native American. And native Americans were yelling "from sea to shining sea the native American tribes must be free" and started killing people, started saying how they want their land back and everything ..... How would that be treated?
You cannot seriously be blaming the people in a concentration camp for richting back.
Lovely how Israelis compare themselves to genocidal American colonizers and think they have a point.
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I don't even know what anyone means when they throw out "liberal" anymore.
to me libs are hypocrites who try to not anger any side too much
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I'm going to give an honest answer, but i fully expect to be downvoted and demonized for doing so. Nothing I can do about that, but op, you want an honest answer, this is it. I'll also add that I would 100% consider myself leftist, in fact, extremely leftist in most of my views. Why the hell would my username be what it is and why the hell would I be on lemmy if I wasn't... anyway... here's the answer since you asked for it:
The large majority of jews I know, including myself and my family feel like this current war is the fault of Hamas. Oct 7 doesn't happen, this war doesn't happen. We also are continually annoyed by the fact that most people on the left, constantly refuse to acknowledge that Hamas has been pushing this war forward non-stop for decades. All you have to do is look up number of missiles launched at Israel since 2000 to see that. People no-doubt try to rebut this by saying "but Israel has been stealing territory". My constant response to that is they have been taking territory to establish buffer zones to enhance security. As almost all of this land has been taken after conflict. Israel even tried to give back some of this land, but was then attacked again, and had to take land back in order to protect itself -- But eventually our conversation just goes back to why this is even happening and we are always frustrated by the fact that any argument from the left condemning Zionists always begins in 1948 -- when in fact the troubles of the region started hundreds of years before that. This pre-1948 history seems to never be brought up however. So the blame is always cast 100% on jews and all of the attacks on Jewish civilians within Israel are never ever given the time of day.
It's incredibly frustrating and scary, because the narrative is fully turning into "jews are evil", and there is nothing any Jewish person can do about it. Jews are never going to willingly leave Israel and Hamas is never going to stop trying to eradicate jews. There are only 16ish million jews on the planet and almost 2 billion Muslims. There is no way jews could ever win this propaganda war. I think a lot of jews who feel they are on the left side of the political spectrum are too scared to even speak about their feelings on Israel/Palestine at the moment, because they know they are going to be vastly outnumbered and demonized, by those they would usually consider friends, with anything they say. So most of us are silent on the subject because we don't want to be ostracized.
I will end this by saying, we of course feel bad for civilians caught in the crossfire, but we feel like Jewish civilians are not given that same respect. The sentiment we get is that Jewish civilians seem to deserve it.
It’s incredibly frustrating and scary, because the narrative is fully turning into “jews are evil”, and there is nothing any Jewish person can do about it.
If it's any kind of comfort to you, I got radicalized against Zionism by jews. A lot of jewish observers are fighting to free Palestine.
I did hear some palestinian or muslim speak out against Israel's inhuman apartheid state, but jews have been making the best case I've heard for freeing palestine.
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I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
Its a genocide, not a war
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Just wanted to say you're getting a skewed picture of people's opinions, as Lemmy isn't popular / well known at all in Israel.
The absolute majority of Jews in Israel are united in wanting the hostages back (currently 58, of which an estimated half are still alive).
A lot want that and to end the war ASAP, not for any real concern for the Palestinians, but for the troops, the economy, and world image.
A lot want to keep going to eradicate Hamas and Hezbollah and Houthis to prevent October 7th from ever happening again.
It's difficult to be pro Palestinian when your friends and family have been slaughtered or held hostage by a (seemingly) unprovoked attack against soldiers and civilians.
The Overton window in Israel doesn't currently allow it, though things might have been changing very recently.
At least here, we don't discuss it much in the same way we don't discuss the mountain near town; it's there, we can't move it, shrug your shoulders, it's part of the landscape.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Important distinction that might help you: Being against this war doesn't make you "Pro Palestinian," it just makes you anti-war, and especially, anti-genocide. On the flip side, being anti-war/ anti-genocide doesn't make you anti-Semitic.
Genocide is NEVER justified.
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I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
I’m an American atheist Jew, and I’ve had conversations with my (converted) mother about it. She’s pretty solidly on Israel’s side, but she’s also not very educated about the conflict. She just kinda goes by the mainstream media’s narrative and doesn’t think too much beyond that. When I present her with information, she’s horrified and agrees with me that “Israel is going too far,” but it never results in her thinking the U.S. should stop sending them money. She hates Netanyahu and his conservative government, but she’s very hung up on Hamas being a terrorist organization. And I suppose I am too, to be honest. I want a free Palestine and for the Israeli settlers to be expelled, but I don’t want to support Hamas and I think they should pretty much be eradicated. I’m just much more willing to condemn Israel for their actions than she is; she’s very caught on the idea that Israel has a right to defend itself from Palestinian terrorism, and has a hard time seeing that it’s gone way past that at this point.
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Bibi literally admitted that the Israeli government feeds Hamas in order to have excuses for the war. “Hamas struck first”, should always be followed with “Israel is an invading power committing genocide”. You would've been the kind of German who would always justify the Nazi occupations, because “the partisans struck first”, Then feel righteous because you think Hitler shouldn't be the one leading the Reich. Like, even your example is ignoring the fact that the British committed genocide against Native Americans, then the American state continued it.
Link for the "literally admit" claim?
His words have always been to the effect of the reason we're not letting aid in is because hamas steals it from the people and lets them go hungry
Btw We still blame Bibi for not handling the war properly, only even agreeing to sit at the table for peace talks once he knew that trump would give him unlimited usage of weapons, and many other things.
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You cannot seriously be blaming the people in a concentration camp for richting back.
Lovely how Israelis compare themselves to genocidal American colonizers and think they have a point.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]No. The native American bit was for the "why don't Israelis just leave/give back the land?" people... Because after 70+ years people have grown up, worked hard, bought land, raised families, etc.
nobody I know in America would want to say "hey, I worked my whole life to (own my property, build my business, raise my family, etc) ... If the native Americans asked really hard I'd give it back" ...
But a lot of people are saying that the Israelis should just leave.
Edit. The other bit is that there are Muslims who live in Israel. There are Christians/atheists/etc who live in Israel as well.
Jews aren't welcome in SA, Iraq, Iran...
Concentration camp is not a good analogy for what's going on here
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I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
My family overwhelmingly supports the genocide and the Israeli government. My father even thinks they arent going far enough and my mother just wants it to look pretty. The majority of Jewish people (especially religious people) see not only Palestinians but all muslims as lesser people.
Im not intrested in hearing "not all Jews" like its supposed to make me feel better because it doesn't. It just whitewashes real issues and fundamental problems with the Jewish community. The simple fact that Zionists control Jewish education and own most Jewish institutions, and they use it to spread hate.
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No. The native American bit was for the "why don't Israelis just leave/give back the land?" people... Because after 70+ years people have grown up, worked hard, bought land, raised families, etc.
nobody I know in America would want to say "hey, I worked my whole life to (own my property, build my business, raise my family, etc) ... If the native Americans asked really hard I'd give it back" ...
But a lot of people are saying that the Israelis should just leave.
Edit. The other bit is that there are Muslims who live in Israel. There are Christians/atheists/etc who live in Israel as well.
Jews aren't welcome in SA, Iraq, Iran...
Concentration camp is not a good analogy for what's going on here
wrote on last edited by [email protected]The original Palestinian owners of the land are still alive. They are currently in the concentration camp being slaughtered by Israel.
Jews still live in the countries you mentioned and are far less repressed than Palestians in Israel where a full apartheid and genocide against them takes place.
