Are there people that are otherwise logical but drop their skepticism when it comes to l religion? How do they consolidate those 2 sides of themselves?
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Sometimes!
My college chaplain often said "If religion makes you comfortable you're doing it wrong." So, yes, I'm bothered that so much of my connection to my religion is circumstancial, but I'd rather be uncomfortable about it than dishonest with myself. And admittedly, I'm kind of at a low point right now, so my answers might be very different in eighteen months.
That said, God exists or doesn't regardless of what I believe. I don't particularly need to take anything on faith to find value in my religion.
Why is it good that it makes you uncomfortable? And I’ll go a step further and ask whether all discomfort regarding religion is good. For example, was your chaplain saying you should be uncomfortable because you’re not sure if it’s rooted in truth, or were they saying you should be going out of your comfort zone and challenging yourself to do more and/or expressing your faith in new ways? If so, are the two equivalent?
I’m asking in genuine curiosity: I grew up Catholic, and never felt much of a community motivation for my religion. Once I got to college, I mostly stopped going to church, with occasional bursts where I’d decide to go for a month or so. So going to church dried up before my faith did for me, and I don’t really understand going in the absence of faith.
I hung on as an agnostic theist for years, though lately I think I’ve been more of an agnostic atheist. I agree with your sentiment on God existence not being predicated on belief, but have also reached the conclusion that if I need belief to accept something as true, it probably isn’t.
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You likely also participate in rituals that were taught to you that are not solely grounded in logic or science. Do you do things in a certain order for no reason other than your parents taught you to do so? Do you avoid eating certain foods because you never ate them growing up?
People who are raised religious may not be fanatic believers, but they may still be "culturally religious" e.g. take part in Ramadan, avoid eating pork, because that's the way they grew up, and a lot of the time it means they can be included in cultural matters of the community they come from.
As for why some people are proper religious, fully believing and all, I also don't think all beliefs have to be rational. Some beliefs are comforting. If it helps someone to get through a difficult time by believing there's a higher power rooting for them, or who has pre-planned their suffering for a greater good, they may choose to believe that because it's mentally easier. Arguably that is a rational belief anyway because it benefits you and makes your life easier to get through.
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I'd be very surprised if Quantum Fluctuations are pop-sci misinformation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation
Hmm, but that seems to be again that there's actually fields there, rather than proper nothing. At the very least, I would still say that the universe already existed before the Big Bang, if there was fields spanning all over the place and they just needed quantum fluctuation to turn into something you can touch. Especially, because "touch" is still just an interaction with a field.
And I'm not trying to say that the phenomenon itself is pop-sci misinformation, but rather how it's portrayed. They'll write a title like "How Quantum Fluctuation Creates Something from Nothing", which is technically something you could say, because "nothing" doesn't have a sharp definition. But it's also misleading as people will not think that "nothing" could also mean that there is actually still fields there. Instead, they will interpret it as proper nothing. And pop-sci journalists do that, because it brings in clicks, unfortunately.
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There is a prevelant theory but it's still an unanswered philosophical question that noone truly intelligent would tell you they knew definitively. Anyone asserting that matter 100% comes before conciousness is on the same wavelength as someone telling you there is 100% a god controlling everything.
So we can at least agree that people who are confident in something unproveable are objectively unintelligent.
I wouldn't say unintelligent, I would say untrained to think beyond certain constraints. We break through one barrier, then another.
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Yes, I know a guy like this. I'm not aware of his considerations of how he is able to separate science from religion.
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Deep cultural conditioning. When a person approaches something totally new they will use reasonable standards of evidence, but in religious communities there's a standard present that certain things shouldn't be questioned.
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Honestly, it's such a deeply core part of my personality that I can't envision someone without it that's still "me".
I know most people who don't grow up religious don't seek it out later (though some do) and I'm not vain enough to think that I'm that different from most people.
As to changing religions, yes, I've had the opportunity to convert, and yes, I felt no desire to because I'm mostly satisfied with my religion. I flirt with the idea of attending a Unitarian or Quaker congregation sometimes but I already belong in an Episcopal one, y'know?
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Can you point out what specifically makes you think I believe that? If it will clear things up I will give you my opinion about the subject outright, I would say it depends on whether there is a creator or not, does this creator have a physical form, where did they come from, what allows them to create life, and many more questions. This question can't be answered with our knowledge and it is built on other unanswerable concepts so any answer is just a guess.
Could you explain what that has to do with understanding objective and subjective means? I cannot prove to you that anything exists, I can't even prove to you that we live in the same reality, or that you are a sentient being and not a figment of my imagination. "I think, therefore I am", I can observe my reality but I can neither prove my existence nor confirm my observations are correct. The only conclusion that leaves me with is, I know that I don't know.
I don't value objectivity over subjectivity unless we're talking about logic because logic is about overcoming subjective beliefs to find the objective truth, so it should follow that I hold your logic to the rigidity that it's defined by no?
And again, you are making assumptions about me with no truth behind them.
Every time you're challenged on your beliefs, you claim to not know, but when you're challenging other people's beliefs you use words like "irrational" and "illogical".
You don't behave like someone who is calmly on the fence at all.
I worry that your debating position and your actual beliefs are out of alignment and I'm not sure whether you're misleading us or yourself.
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Every time you're challenged on your beliefs, you claim to not know, but when you're challenging other people's beliefs you use words like "irrational" and "illogical".
You don't behave like someone who is calmly on the fence at all.
I worry that your debating position and your actual beliefs are out of alignment and I'm not sure whether you're misleading us or yourself.
If I don't know something then im going to say I don't know, am I supposed to make up an answer? I call it irrational and illogical to be confident in something noone can know, which is the opposite of my stance.
What exactly are you reading as "not calm"? I've talked nothing but logic, no emotion involved in this at all yet the other guy is taking leaps and bounds to make assumptions of me that have all been incorrect guesses.
What exactly is it that confuses you so I can clear it up?
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Ignorance is bliss right?
To me, that sums up the meaning of the eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The nakedness represents our innocence/vulnerability, so we as humans seek to hide it, in order to protect ourselves, from being hurt by others, especially those who have some perceived advantage over us. The garden was a safe space of ignorance. But it's illusory, and so I'm not entirely convinced the serpent (representing wisdom, not just knowledge) did us a disservice. But you'd have to delve into hermetic kabbalah to get the whole story. I've only scratched the surface, and that's over the last couple of years. Life has it's demands.
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I wouldn't say unintelligent, I would say untrained to think beyond certain constraints. We break through one barrier, then another.
A big part of intelligence is understanding when you don't know something. You'll find that there are a lot of people who will make things up as they go because they don't want to admit they don't know something, which is unwise. So being confident in something that noone can know is not typically an intelligent thing to do.
Most people can be taught knowledge but your intelligence potential is mostly genetic, set at birth based on how well your processes run. Environmental factors will affect how much of your potential you will achieve.
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A big part of intelligence is understanding when you don't know something. You'll find that there are a lot of people who will make things up as they go because they don't want to admit they don't know something, which is unwise. So being confident in something that noone can know is not typically an intelligent thing to do.
Most people can be taught knowledge but your intelligence potential is mostly genetic, set at birth based on how well your processes run. Environmental factors will affect how much of your potential you will achieve.
On the face, it seems reasonable, but I'm not so sure. I'll think about that.
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You likely also participate in rituals that were taught to you that are not solely grounded in logic or science. Do you do things in a certain order for no reason other than your parents taught you to do so? Do you avoid eating certain foods because you never ate them growing up?
People who are raised religious may not be fanatic believers, but they may still be "culturally religious" e.g. take part in Ramadan, avoid eating pork, because that's the way they grew up, and a lot of the time it means they can be included in cultural matters of the community they come from.
As for why some people are proper religious, fully believing and all, I also don't think all beliefs have to be rational. Some beliefs are comforting. If it helps someone to get through a difficult time by believing there's a higher power rooting for them, or who has pre-planned their suffering for a greater good, they may choose to believe that because it's mentally easier. Arguably that is a rational belief anyway because it benefits you and makes your life easier to get through.
I get your sentiment but all the rituals I picked up in life are nowhere near the seriousness of a religion though. You're talking about choosing something that could potentially affect you for eternity vs me not wanting to eat guinea pigs because I didn't grow up in Peru.
I understand that people find comfort in religion and a lot do it as a way to calm their existential crises but my question is how someone who is otherwise logical can separate religious beliefs into another folder. They knowingly fool themselves into believing something that may not be true or possibly even being tricked into following a false idol but they don't apply those rules elsewhere.
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To me, that sums up the meaning of the eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The nakedness represents our innocence/vulnerability, so we as humans seek to hide it, in order to protect ourselves, from being hurt by others, especially those who have some perceived advantage over us. The garden was a safe space of ignorance. But it's illusory, and so I'm not entirely convinced the serpent (representing wisdom, not just knowledge) did us a disservice. But you'd have to delve into hermetic kabbalah to get the whole story. I've only scratched the surface, and that's over the last couple of years. Life has it's demands.
Yes adam and eve are a good example
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On the face, it seems reasonable, but I'm not so sure. I'll think about that.
I think you may be taking the word unintelligent as an insult, which it of course can be used as one but in this context I'm not using it as an insult.
They mentioned that science minded people will confidently say matter comes before conciousness as proof that logical people are confident in unproveable things as well. That statement was false to begin with because it was based on that science minded person being logical.
Being confident in something unproven is not the logical or intelligent thing to do so I was explaining why that example doesn't work as the example they gave was not of a logical intelligent thinker that I was asking about in my title.
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Honestly, it's such a deeply core part of my personality that I can't envision someone without it that's still "me".
I know most people who don't grow up religious don't seek it out later (though some do) and I'm not vain enough to think that I'm that different from most people.
As to changing religions, yes, I've had the opportunity to convert, and yes, I felt no desire to because I'm mostly satisfied with my religion. I flirt with the idea of attending a Unitarian or Quaker congregation sometimes but I already belong in an Episcopal one, y'know?
I get what you mean, my mom is the same way. She continued going to church and church functions after I left because that was her community. She couldn't name all 10 commandments but she's so used to that life and those people that it would be like losing her entire social network if she stopped going.
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I think you may be taking the word unintelligent as an insult, which it of course can be used as one but in this context I'm not using it as an insult.
They mentioned that science minded people will confidently say matter comes before conciousness as proof that logical people are confident in unproveable things as well. That statement was false to begin with because it was based on that science minded person being logical.
Being confident in something unproven is not the logical or intelligent thing to do so I was explaining why that example doesn't work as the example they gave was not of a logical intelligent thinker that I was asking about in my title.
Lol. That's... Quite a stretch. I do not consider this context as being insulting. I said I'm doing this between chores, and I need to think about it. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Lol. That's... Quite a stretch. I do not consider this context as being insulting. I said I'm doing this between chores, and I need to think about it. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm clarifying why I said unintelligent because I think this is your second time pointing out the word in separate comments so it comes off as you having an issue with the word
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I'm clarifying why I said unintelligent because I think this is your second time pointing out the word in separate comments so it comes off as you having an issue with the word
I'm using the terminology you chose. Rough, I need to get back in shape! Moving furniture to clean under and behind is so. much. fun! But later I get to have a hot soak and my house is smelling nice. Not least of all because I'm cooking, too.
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I'm using the terminology you chose. Rough, I need to get back in shape! Moving furniture to clean under and behind is so. much. fun! But later I get to have a hot soak and my house is smelling nice. Not least of all because I'm cooking, too.
Nothing like 4 sets of couch raises and 2 sets of window wiping to get the blood pumping. Big fan of food, what you making?
