Are there people that are otherwise logical but drop their skepticism when it comes to l religion? How do they consolidate those 2 sides of themselves?
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To me, that sums up the meaning of the eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The nakedness represents our innocence/vulnerability, so we as humans seek to hide it, in order to protect ourselves, from being hurt by others, especially those who have some perceived advantage over us. The garden was a safe space of ignorance. But it's illusory, and so I'm not entirely convinced the serpent (representing wisdom, not just knowledge) did us a disservice. But you'd have to delve into hermetic kabbalah to get the whole story. I've only scratched the surface, and that's over the last couple of years. Life has it's demands.
Yes adam and eve are a good example
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On the face, it seems reasonable, but I'm not so sure. I'll think about that.
I think you may be taking the word unintelligent as an insult, which it of course can be used as one but in this context I'm not using it as an insult.
They mentioned that science minded people will confidently say matter comes before conciousness as proof that logical people are confident in unproveable things as well. That statement was false to begin with because it was based on that science minded person being logical.
Being confident in something unproven is not the logical or intelligent thing to do so I was explaining why that example doesn't work as the example they gave was not of a logical intelligent thinker that I was asking about in my title.
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Honestly, it's such a deeply core part of my personality that I can't envision someone without it that's still "me".
I know most people who don't grow up religious don't seek it out later (though some do) and I'm not vain enough to think that I'm that different from most people.
As to changing religions, yes, I've had the opportunity to convert, and yes, I felt no desire to because I'm mostly satisfied with my religion. I flirt with the idea of attending a Unitarian or Quaker congregation sometimes but I already belong in an Episcopal one, y'know?
I get what you mean, my mom is the same way. She continued going to church and church functions after I left because that was her community. She couldn't name all 10 commandments but she's so used to that life and those people that it would be like losing her entire social network if she stopped going.
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I think you may be taking the word unintelligent as an insult, which it of course can be used as one but in this context I'm not using it as an insult.
They mentioned that science minded people will confidently say matter comes before conciousness as proof that logical people are confident in unproveable things as well. That statement was false to begin with because it was based on that science minded person being logical.
Being confident in something unproven is not the logical or intelligent thing to do so I was explaining why that example doesn't work as the example they gave was not of a logical intelligent thinker that I was asking about in my title.
Lol. That's... Quite a stretch. I do not consider this context as being insulting. I said I'm doing this between chores, and I need to think about it. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Lol. That's... Quite a stretch. I do not consider this context as being insulting. I said I'm doing this between chores, and I need to think about it. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm clarifying why I said unintelligent because I think this is your second time pointing out the word in separate comments so it comes off as you having an issue with the word
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I'm clarifying why I said unintelligent because I think this is your second time pointing out the word in separate comments so it comes off as you having an issue with the word
I'm using the terminology you chose. Rough, I need to get back in shape! Moving furniture to clean under and behind is so. much. fun! But later I get to have a hot soak and my house is smelling nice. Not least of all because I'm cooking, too.
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I'm using the terminology you chose. Rough, I need to get back in shape! Moving furniture to clean under and behind is so. much. fun! But later I get to have a hot soak and my house is smelling nice. Not least of all because I'm cooking, too.
Nothing like 4 sets of couch raises and 2 sets of window wiping to get the blood pumping. Big fan of food, what you making?
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Nothing like 4 sets of couch raises and 2 sets of window wiping to get the blood pumping. Big fan of food, what you making?
Mole verde. I also cooked some beef, I'll do veggies after a bath. The last room can wait until tomorrow. I'm pooped!
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Mole verde. I also cooked some beef, I'll do veggies after a bath. The last room can wait until tomorrow. I'm pooped!
Sounds incredible! Enjoy!
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Not everyone who is deeply religious is a true believer. Some just see it as a community, and the rigid adherance to the rules as the key to that community. One of the rules is to always say you're a true believer, though. My sister in law is like this. She just decided one day to join a religion, researched the ones with the perks that best suited her and joined it.
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If I don't know something then im going to say I don't know, am I supposed to make up an answer? I call it irrational and illogical to be confident in something noone can know, which is the opposite of my stance.
What exactly are you reading as "not calm"? I've talked nothing but logic, no emotion involved in this at all yet the other guy is taking leaps and bounds to make assumptions of me that have all been incorrect guesses.
What exactly is it that confuses you so I can clear it up?
You present yourself as an agnostic but are very one sided in the debate, and you only have criticism for religious people. If you're going to use words like irrational and illogical for religious beliefs, at least have the intellectual honesty that your position is far more atheist than you're admitting to us or yourself. It's not nuanced or balanced at all.
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You present yourself as an agnostic but are very one sided in the debate, and you only have criticism for religious people. If you're going to use words like irrational and illogical for religious beliefs, at least have the intellectual honesty that your position is far more atheist than you're admitting to us or yourself. It's not nuanced or balanced at all.
You really don't need to go far to find proof that what you just said was false. I said people who claim with certainty that matter came before conciousness are as unintelligent as someone claiming they know what happens in the afterlife.
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You really don't need to go far to find proof that what you just said was false. I said people who claim with certainty that matter came before conciousness are as unintelligent as someone claiming they know what happens in the afterlife.
Sure, and Trump claims to respect women equally and has no qualms promoting women, but his contempt for them leaks out and the overall picture is starkly clear.
Maybe you don't realise that normal people consider words like "illogical", "irrational" and "unintelligent" pejorative.
Your behaviour is very like the people on here before the election spending at their time explaining why the Democrats are terrible and people shouldn't vote for them, but when challenged, claimed that they didn't support Trump at all. It was never clear whether they were lying to others or themselves
You're being condescendingly dismissive about other people's beliefs, overwhelmingly about religious beliefs, and I begin to think that you yourself believe that agnostism is the most defensible intellectual position, so you adopt it in theory, but you use it mainly to belittle religious viewpoints. I think emotionally and in behaviour you're an atheist, but you're not prepared to admit it to yourself because your intellectual heroes are agnostic and you look down on staunchly atheistic people, despite behaving like one online.
Give in. It's 2025. Be yourself.
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Sure, and Trump claims to respect women equally and has no qualms promoting women, but his contempt for them leaks out and the overall picture is starkly clear.
Maybe you don't realise that normal people consider words like "illogical", "irrational" and "unintelligent" pejorative.
Your behaviour is very like the people on here before the election spending at their time explaining why the Democrats are terrible and people shouldn't vote for them, but when challenged, claimed that they didn't support Trump at all. It was never clear whether they were lying to others or themselves
You're being condescendingly dismissive about other people's beliefs, overwhelmingly about religious beliefs, and I begin to think that you yourself believe that agnostism is the most defensible intellectual position, so you adopt it in theory, but you use it mainly to belittle religious viewpoints. I think emotionally and in behaviour you're an atheist, but you're not prepared to admit it to yourself because your intellectual heroes are agnostic and you look down on staunchly atheistic people, despite behaving like one online.
Give in. It's 2025. Be yourself.
Ah I see what the problem is, you think you know me and you've created an entire personality based on things I never said. Then when I give you proof of your false accusations you try to paint me as a villain that is harassing all religious people even though I haven't. Have a good night buddy
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Ah I see what the problem is, you think you know me and you've created an entire personality based on things I never said. Then when I give you proof of your false accusations you try to paint me as a villain that is harassing all religious people even though I haven't. Have a good night buddy
No, I don't know you at all, all I've got to go on is the way you're behaving in this thread.
If you think that calling people “illogical”, “irrational” and “unintelligent” isn't condescending and dismissive, your social awareness is extremely low, and I think your self awareness is rather low.
You like to assert that you are balanced, but you also like to spend all day calling religious folk unintelligent, illogical and irrational.
Your "have a good night buddy" is as utterly unconvincing as your neutrality.
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No, I don't know you at all, all I've got to go on is the way you're behaving in this thread.
If you think that calling people “illogical”, “irrational” and “unintelligent” isn't condescending and dismissive, your social awareness is extremely low, and I think your self awareness is rather low.
You like to assert that you are balanced, but you also like to spend all day calling religious folk unintelligent, illogical and irrational.
Your "have a good night buddy" is as utterly unconvincing as your neutrality.
So after accusing me of everything under the sun in a few comments based on lies, you now claim you don't know me at all. Well if you don't know me at all then stop categorizing me as a democrat and trump-like because you could not be further from the truth. You're not using any logic as evidenced by your random accusations, you're acting purely on emotion because you feel that I am attacking religious people even though you can read the conversations I've had with theists capable of being pleasant.
The words logical, irrational, and unintelligent are used because that is literally the topic of the post. If that bothers you I recommend you move on and reply to some other posts more relatable for you.
Again, ad hominem fallacies all over your comments because you are not arguing with me because you believe I'm wrong, you are arguing with me because you've projected a personality onto me that is not based on truths. You are the type of person to give religion a bad name because you're unable to hold a converation like an adult and prefer to throw a tantrum if someone's beliefs don't align with yours. Don't waste my time
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Evolution in complex organisms takes millions of years so no it's not something you'll witness in your life time. The evolutions you do witness are in faster aging, less complex organisms such as microbes which we can practically witness evolving in real time. Evolution isn't a theory, it is an inevitability, those that survive their surroundings pass on their genes, that is all that evolution is.
Also we can see evolution at work when bacteria develop resistance to medications.
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Also we can see evolution at work when bacteria develop resistance to medications.
Right, that's the type of microbial evolution I mean
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Not everyone who is deeply religious is a true believer. Some just see it as a community, and the rigid adherance to the rules as the key to that community. One of the rules is to always say you're a true believer, though. My sister in law is like this. She just decided one day to join a religion, researched the ones with the perks that best suited her and joined it.
My aunt joined a humanist church, which is basically "religion" for atheists. It was literally just Sunday mass without the worship.
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Ah I see what the problem is, you think you know me and you've created an entire personality based on things I never said. Then when I give you proof of your false accusations you try to paint me as a villain that is harassing all religious people even though I haven't. Have a good night buddy
Would it help you if we called it anti-theistic rather than atheistic? Regarding your overwhelmingly anti-theistic perspective, there's a difference between belief and proof that you're ignoring - you can't prove your atheism and you disrespect people who believe things without proof, so you deny your atheism.
But you believe lots of things without proof. It's how we go about our daily lives. It's normal. You don't get your spectrometer out so that you don't inadvertently believe without proof that the skirt is blue despite knowing full well that you are vulnerable to optical illusions, and you don't have to have proof that the creepy guy is a creep to avoid him. This is normal. This is how we evolved to learn about the world.
I think the reason that I've upset you is that I've caused you cognitive dissonance, because I assert that you believe atheism without proof and it seriously challenges your self image because the one argument you used against religion all the time was that believing things without proof is illogical, irrational and unintelligent, and whilst you're happy to claim that you mean that in the nicest, most neutral, inoffensive and non-insulting way, you don't half react badly when I put you at the receiving end of your own criticism.
If you really in your heart truly believed that atheism and religious belief both have equal merit and there's no rational way to decide between them, you wouldn't spend the whole day inviting religious folk to explain to you why they're so irrational, illogical and unintelligent when it comes to religion. You have an opinion, and it's very strongly held, but you never admit it, because it's not as logical as claiming there's no answer and you so very strongly want to believe that you're logical and rational. But I want you to accept yourself as you really are, a bunch of flesh and blood, leaping to conclusions every day on everything based on flimsy evidence and little logical deduction, controlled by emotions and flooded with hormones all day long. We all are. It's ok. We evolved to have gut feelings for our own protection. You believe atheism but you assert agnostism intellectually. You dismiss the evidence of your own behaviour and attitudes to keep up the self pretence that you drew beliefs are exclusively deduced logically from cast iron evidence, but that's just not how humans decide things that they care about at all. It's how they solve maths problems, not how they decide how to treat each other on social media.
I think you really need to come to terms with the fact that you're fundamentally human and accept that you have some beliefs you can't prove, like everyone does.
Remember that you believe in the supremacy of science because your parents and teachers taught you to and told you stories of the empirical method's victory over philosophy for making accurate predictions, not because you preformed some grand comparative experimental study of different philosophies yourself. We believe what we believe because it seems right to us, and we so very very very rarely get out the tape measure and national statistics when we think someone is unusually tall. It's ok to have things you believe that you didn't prove, it's not ok to believe that you prove everything that you think is true; you wouldn't even be able to have breakfast before it was too late if you did.
