China urges citizens to trade in 'old lithium e-bikes' for newer lead acid electric bikes

[monkdervierte@lemmy.ml]

From what i know the issue seems to be too lax safety margins in packaging, to increase density.

[seekpie@lemm.ee]

This one maybe?

[chaoscruiser@futurology.today]

This is big news. Why isn’t everyone already talking about SIBs? Also, the 145 Wh/kg sits neatly between LFP and NMC. As long as the other properties are reasonable, it should stand a chance against NMC.

[5in1k@lemm.ee]

Less than half in my experience. I bought two 100ah 12v lifepos and they are under 30 lbs. 23lbs I believe. I have a lead acid deep cycle of the same power and it’s like 80-90.

[crimedad@lemmy.crimedad.work]

Are AGM batteries really inferior? Sure, they're heavier, but they aren't vulnerable to autoignition and thermal runaway. They also contain less conflict minerals than other types of batteries.

[hovercat@lemmy.blahaj.zone]

AGM are absolutely awful compared to even the absolute worst lithium batteries, and won't last long at all if regularly cycled below even 50% SoC. LFP chemistries are a bit worse for energy density compared to NCA/NCM chemistries, but they don't contain any nickel or cobalt, and won't autoignite in the same way other chemistries will. Absolutely ridiculous they're suggesting lead batteries over better lithium options.

[dudeimmacgyver@sh.itjust.works]

newer

lead acid

Uh, wtf?

[fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de]

I thought AGM were considered "deep cycle", as in designed for their full capacity to be used between charges.

[buzz86us@lemmy.world]

Damn I'd have atleast waited until sodium ion was built out

[snoopbob@lemmy.ca]

A lead acid based battery can be deep cycle or starter or both. Being deep cycle basically means the plates inside the are battery thicker, which allows it more tolerance for being depleted as well as generally more reserve.

A real easy way to understand it that I found (when explaining it to customers without a technical background.)

Imagine instead of electricity it's water. A deep cycle battery is simply a larger tank of water with a regular size pipe to get the water out. A starter battery is a regular size tank with a large pipe to get the water out.

So if you need to start a engine that needs a chunk of water(electricity) all at once to start it , a starter battery can provide it but doesn't have alot of reserve behind it so the pipe cant stay open very long.

The deep cycle can't provide the large rush of water at once(cca) but does have lots of reserve so the pipe runs longer.

Both suffer from reduced flow(voltage drop) as the tank empties. Imagine the pipe not able to be completely filled as the tank drained, you still get water but the rate is reduced as the pressure behind drops. Both suffer damage if left too empty or are drawn too low, a deep cycles design just gives it far more tolerance to that depleted state, allow it to be cycled more( charged from empty) more times before the battery fails.

Dual purpose batteries are basically large tank, large pipe.

It's worth noting that DC voltage only draws what it needs, you can hook up the largest battery bank to the smallest load with no issue as far as the size of the bank etc if everything is setup and function correctly.

Lithium suffers from none of these drawbacks. (As well as many more advantages) Gotta use the newer tech that is far safer though. Early Lithium and most cheap none reputable stuff is using the riskier tech with substandard QC.

[buzz86us@lemmy.world]

Ehh they need to do sodium batteries

[noobnarski@lemmy.world]

And even if you only cycle lead batteries above 50% SOC, they will still last a significantly shorter amount of time, especially compared to LiFePo4 batteries.

[crimedad@lemmy.crimedad.work]

The headline means newly manufactured e-bikes with lead acid batteries.

[jabathekek@sopuli.xyz]

Estonia

Bestonia

[pycorax@lemmy.world]

I'm Singaporean and we've had a ton of apartments burnt down because of these imported Chinese ebikes already.

[ajen@sh.itjust.works]

That doesn't explain why the new bikes have older technology than the bikes they're urging people to trade in.

[nytarsha@lemmy.sdf.org]

It's in the article:

Over the last decade or so, China has seen a shift from older AGM batteries, which are heavy and bulky, toward lighter and longer-lasting lithium-ion batteries.

However, safety concerns regarding rare yet dangerous lithium-ion battery fires have put a pause on that proliferation. The government instituted new safety standards for lithium-ion batteries in e-bikes last year, but there’s also been a major pushback toward AGM batteries for the domestic market.

[gayhitler@lemmy.ml]

There are some possibly inaccurate and definitely confusing statements in the reply you got, but the first part, that agm is a physical structure of the lead acid battery that can be tipped over without making a giant mess and that deep cycle is another function of design as opposed to a function of the lead acid chemistry is correct.

What’s left unsaid is that lead acid batteries which are damaged and not working right anymore have a much safer and lower tech recycling process than lithium ones do and that’s saying something because one of the parts is lead!

[gayhitler@lemmy.ml]

The safety thing is 100% true but only part of the picture.

E-bikes don’t need maximum energy density because they’re not gonna be used for long trips and are significantly lighter than cars and trucks.

China has many, many more electric vehicles than any other country and a ton of electricity production to run them. At some point it’s gonna become important to save the lithium batteries for the stuff that needs that high density power.

Maybe these better chemistries that will replace lithium are just around the corner. I certainly don’t count unhatched chickens.

[fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de]

Thanks! The other reply obviously meant well but was a bit mansplainey !

My situation is, I've recently purchased a camper trailer. It's wired up but needs a battery. I haven't had time to "research" other than seeing what batteries people are selling second hand. It seemed to me that everyone was using AGM batteries for this purpose and while I knew that AGM referred to the physical structure of glass mesh I had assumed it was synonymous with deep cycle batteries.

Now I've read about it a bit more I realise that LiFePO4 batteries are superior but more costly.

I guess, the reason why I was seeing AGM batteries everywhere is because everyone's buys them because they're cheap and then realises they really needed LiFePO4 so they try to sell the AGM and upgrade.