China urges citizens to trade in 'old lithium e-bikes' for newer lead acid electric bikes

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That doesn't explain why the new bikes have older technology than the bikes they're urging people to trade in.

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It's in the article:

Over the last decade or so, China has seen a shift from older AGM batteries, which are heavy and bulky, toward lighter and longer-lasting lithium-ion batteries.

However, safety concerns regarding rare yet dangerous lithium-ion battery fires have put a pause on that proliferation. The government instituted new safety standards for lithium-ion batteries in e-bikes last year, but there’s also been a major pushback toward AGM batteries for the domestic market.

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There are some possibly inaccurate and definitely confusing statements in the reply you got, but the first part, that agm is a physical structure of the lead acid battery that can be tipped over without making a giant mess and that deep cycle is another function of design as opposed to a function of the lead acid chemistry is correct.

What’s left unsaid is that lead acid batteries which are damaged and not working right anymore have a much safer and lower tech recycling process than lithium ones do and that’s saying something because one of the parts is lead!

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The safety thing is 100% true but only part of the picture.

E-bikes don’t need maximum energy density because they’re not gonna be used for long trips and are significantly lighter than cars and trucks.

China has many, many more electric vehicles than any other country and a ton of electricity production to run them. At some point it’s gonna become important to save the lithium batteries for the stuff that needs that high density power.

Maybe these better chemistries that will replace lithium are just around the corner. I certainly don’t count unhatched chickens.

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Thanks! The other reply obviously meant well but was a bit mansplainey !

My situation is, I've recently purchased a camper trailer. It's wired up but needs a battery. I haven't had time to "research" other than seeing what batteries people are selling second hand. It seemed to me that everyone was using AGM batteries for this purpose and while I knew that AGM referred to the physical structure of glass mesh I had assumed it was synonymous with deep cycle batteries.

Now I've read about it a bit more I realise that LiFePO4 batteries are superior but more costly.

I guess, the reason why I was seeing AGM batteries everywhere is because everyone's buys them because they're cheap and then realises they really needed LiFePO4 so they try to sell the AGM and upgrade.

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I’m a wet cell lead acid man myself.

There’s the monthly battery fluid level check to contend with but if you can make sure it doesn’t tip over too often or too long and you can bank on being able to get to civilization once every six or ten years then you’re in the low total cost of ownership ecosystem.

Of course, they’re not as good in the cold and if you screw up and let all the water leak out then you gotta fill it back up and hope it’s not too messed up.

Whatever you pick will be fine. Tbh if you’re not gonna have the trailer for longer than the life of the battery, pick the one that’s got more curb appeal or resale value!

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Do we have enough mineral resources for all the batterie needs to be to fulfilled with lithium only?

I guess china needs lithium in other places more and cheap. Therefore made this initiative. Makes sense for china to protect their lithium stack. International trade in near future gonna be a mess.

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Yeah, they should have just gone to the frontier of technology with carbon-air cells. It's weird, right? I thought China was a first mover in tech.

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Do you know that LiFePO4 cells are the same price (in Europe), longer-lasting, lighter and safer than traction lead-acid ones? They pretty much have no disadvantages to lead-acid, and the need of a BMS (and heater if needing to charge below freezing or run below -4 °F/-20 °C) is no problem since those are a fraction of the cells' price. The only reason I see behind this move would be acute lithium shortage in China.

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Because new items can still use old technologies if it makes more sense to do so?

A 2025 vehicle with a manual radio sold for $30,000 might still sell better than a 2020 vehicle with a touchscreen dash for $25,000

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Fair enough.

It seems like on an e-bike Lithium would be the go due to it's higher energy density.

On a trailer you can house it in something appropriate and the size and weight requirements aren't as restrictive.

It seems like keeping the battery is a common practice when selling a trailer. That's why mine doesn't have one. A lot of people would never use one if they're always parked in someone's yard or in a powered site.

I doubt we will really need a battery at all over the next 6 months with the trips we have planned. Probably better to hold off until we have a few trips under our belt to determine exactly what appliances we're really going to need.

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From what I can tell, lead acid batteries in Europe have taxes applied to them to pay for recycling. Other places don’t have these taxes so lead acid batteries are very cheap there.

Having said that, I watched a video of a guy in Bangladesh recycling lead acid batteries by hand just using simple tools and a pot to melt the lead over a wood fire and a simple mold to pour the lead plates.

It’s a very basic, easy thing to do. It’s just labour intensive so it ends up very expensive if you have to pay Europeans to do it.

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I don't think you realize just how fast lead acid batteries deteriorate when using their smaller charge capacities. In cars and many electronics they are used because they can be shamelessly charged to 100%, and they are supposed to maintain 100% or close to it. They require constant monitoring to be stored properly in a way that lasts. Using them up below 50% will decrease their lifespan significantly. Lithium batteries are quite different, they shouldn't be charged to 100% but in turn they can use a greater amount of their charge while holding more of it without significant deterioration. They have significantly longer lifespans when used properly. Before we had gasoline cars we had electric cars that used lead acid batteries, there's a reason they stopped being used.

What China wants to do is eliminate the older lithium ebikes because they were built with barely any safety regulation. To do this, they need to offer a cheaper option to their citizens, and the only way they can essentially do this without the original problem persisting is using lead acid batteries, because even a cheap lead acid battery with a cheap charger isn't going to fail spectacularly like the lithium ones. LiFePO4 are far safer than lithium while still having higher energy densities, but you won't see those get promoted because they would be costlier.

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I know right, they are cheaping out because why bother subsidizing new bikes when trading in an old bike? Just sell a cheap shittier e bike. If only the citizens were able to pay the government some cash to help make their community more safe and better than before. /s

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Lead acid is LITERALLY the oldest known rechargeable battery type so I am not surprised you can make them with ancient tools if you're also OK with 19th century "safety standards".

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Wait, what? I drain my battery every day. I need more energy density, not less. I do use my bike for long trips, driving a car during rush hour sucks, parking fees are insanely high and parking spots are rare. I sold my car and do everything by electric bike. But after 2 hours of cycling at 32km/h I need to charge.

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Also isn't lead acid heavy as fuck for the energy stored? The difference there is more noticeable on a bike.

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Who would have thought a ml user named gay hitler would be wrong about everything.

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E-bikes don’t need maximum energy density because they’re not gonna be used for long trips and are significantly lighter than cars and trucks.

Actually, ebikes need energy density the most. They tend to not have fast public charging. A lighter ebike has huge advantages, if only for maneuvering a couple of stairs or over a log, but also in suspension and handling + a huge difference in range/acceleration.

For an EV, you don't need "race car" performance, and heavy chemistries are ok. Bike performance just gets a huge boost from relatively minor cost to improve weight/range and performance.

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They should offer upgrade to newer lithium ebikes, LFP and sodium ion is not ideal for ebikes, but way better than SLA. Standards for BMS and pack soldering, and possibly a metal casing (like Lectric XP bikes) for holding battery, and metal case for home charging. There are safety standard designations (UL) used in US markets that may or may not be cash grabs, but seems like a good approach.

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China urges citizens to trade in 'old lithium e-bikes' for newer lead acid electric bikes