Instead of F-35, Portugal turns to Europe in search of new fighter
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First
Portugal hasn’t seen conflict for almost a hundred years.
then
I said “continental” for a reason
So you're simply lying.
I'll absolutelly talk down to people outright lying about things I know better because I was born in the bloody place, members of my family were involved in it and I grew up hearing about it: shameless liars coming here to parrot propaganda do not deserve respect.
Ah shit, I said "continental" in a different comment. I mispoke here, you're right.
I still don't see how the colonial wars are an argument for Portugal having jets. Those wars were unjustified and Portugal deserved to lose every single one.
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Of course. But they don't have to go full MIC and could still keep a small fleet of jets that will be good for a few decades but at some point they've gotta modernize.
They could also not have a fleet of jets and they'd be fine.
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I'm sorry but you're just talking of your ass there.
Portuguese Air-force assets, including fighter jets, are constantly deployed to the Portuguese Economic Area for missions such following the naval assets of hostile nations passing through or near it or even investigating possible criminal activity. The maritime EEA of Portugal is way larger than the actual country and at times the only vehicles that can reach further out enough fast enough are fighter jets.
Furter, fighter jets are literally the only kind of significant help Portugal would be able to send within to its Eastern European partners in the EU and NATO if Russia invaded them (certainly neither the Leopard tanks or regular infantry would get there for a while).
By pointing out that the land territory of Portugal is at low risk of invasion you're actually making the point in favor of fighter jets since those assets make a lot more sense than ground-based assets for a country whose main military demands are on a huge sea area off its territority including far-away parts (around Madeira and Azores) and its military obligations in the two large military alliances the country is part of.
I'd also happily argue against ground-based assets, they don't need tanks either! They need tools for enforcing their naval sovereignty and fighting pirates and such, but fighter jets aren't really the best tools for those jobs.
Also, I acknowledged that fulfilling obligations is necessary. They don't need new fighter jets for that. Besides, if we reach the point where Russia invades NATO it's just going to rapidly escalate to nukes and then we'll all die anyway so
️This is just Portugal giving away their own people's money to businesses in other countries.
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Okay, but actually attacking them on the far western tip of the continent would require going past the rest of the EU/NATO bloc. That's just not realistic. The most they might ever deal with is piracy, and they don't need jets for that.
Fulfilling obligations is obviously necessary, but they don't need new jets. This is obviously just military Keynesianism.
Russia has bases in São Tomé and Príncipe.
Since the beginning of the war in Ukraine, Russian ships and submarines have passed along the Portuguese coast, only leaving with the intervention of our navy and even before this war, it was customary for Russian jets to violate the airspace of a random European country at least once a month, only leaving under the escort of the air forces to test their response time. We are not that protected from Russia as the geographical distance might erroneously lead us to believe.
In short, jets are needed for at least surveillance, deterrence and joint missions with our allies.
P.S.: I hope it doesn't happen, but Trump has already threatened to violate the territorial integrity of Canada and Denmark. Who can guarantee that he won't do the same to Portugal? The Azores archipelago, halfway between the US and Europe, is quite important strategically. He might consider claiming our islands.
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Okay, but every People have a right to demand their government spend money on social programs and not military boondoggles. Ultimately, what do the Portuguese want? Do they want more jets?
We already have good social programs, but honestly they have been declining in quality over the last decade and a half. We still are much better than countries like America in this aspect. We have a number of defense companies, including a drone company, that could grow significantly with the expected European defense investments, which will generate jobs and more tax revenue to, if we are smart, improve our social welfare system.
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They could also not have a fleet of jets and they'd be fine.
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Ah shit, I said "continental" in a different comment. I mispoke here, you're right.
I still don't see how the colonial wars are an argument for Portugal having jets. Those wars were unjustified and Portugal deserved to lose every single one.
You claimed that Portugal not having been involved in major wars for almost a century (which was a false claim) was a reason for the country to not need jets, an argument which literally links the need for jets to being involved in major wars.
Now you've moved the goalposts and it's only "some" major wars that justify having jets, not "other" major wars, and which are the "jet requiring wars and which aren't" being entirelly up to you to define.
(FYI, Portugal used fighter jets in its Colonial Wars)
In summary, you've literally talked yourself into a "it's so because i say it's so argumentative corner".
The feeling that your discourse in all your posts here leaves is that you do not want Portugal to have jets, for reasons that have nothing at all to do with the geostrategical and defense needs and objectives of Portugal and is in fact related to the imperialistic objectives of certain, completelly different and non-friendly, countries being better served by a less well armed Europe, only you can't just outright come out and say it because that would severely damage the "opinion making" ability of your comments, hence the half-arsed circular argumentation balanced on top of nothing more than misinformation and unfundamented opinion.
Hey, maybe I'm wrong, so I'll leave it to others in this thread to make up their own minds about it.
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Use stolen military technology as a casus-belli maybe?
So, the US attacks a NATO member, kicking off Article 5.
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Portugal could never buy enough jets to stop the US. They need nukes. Not a ton! Just a few is enough to scare away other powers.
As for Russia, they're literally the farthest country in Europe from them! Getting to Portugal would mean Europe has collapsed and can't stop Russia, and once again, the only defense here would be nukes.
So, in solidarity, with the rest of Europe, all arms equally, to defend.
United we stand, divided we fall.
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Point. However, the only realistic defense from the US empire is to rely on the nuclear arms from their allies or build their own nukes. Nothing else really matters.
And you need planes, to deliver those nukes...
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Even business-wise and strictily obbeying the contract conditions, paying 500 million for nothing still makes more business sense that paying billions for what will become inactive-plane-shaped pieces of metal if Canada ever needs to defend itself against the only country that geographically is in a position of actually invading it.
Or, just ignore it, pay 0, and see if the US has the stones to try and do anything about it.
Spoiler, we dont.
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So, the US attacks a NATO member, kicking off Article 5.
Sure.
The USA is like 60% of NATO forces.
So this would more likely lead to the dissolution of NATO.
The point I was making is that the adults in the room would probably prefer to not kick the hornets nest despite preparing for the worst if the hornets nest kicks off.
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Sure.
The USA is like 60% of NATO forces.
So this would more likely lead to the dissolution of NATO.
The point I was making is that the adults in the room would probably prefer to not kick the hornets nest despite preparing for the worst if the hornets nest kicks off.
The hornet nest is already kicked up... And the US is 60% of NATO right NOW. Which means Europe needs to bolster themselves. And its easier to do that without handing over half a billion bucks for nothing.
Just ignore it. Trump ignores contracts all the time. At worst? He'd just put more tariffs on the EU, because he knows not a single general will launch a war in Europe.
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Portugal would probably have bought more, since we have a large area of the Atlantic Ocean that needs to be patrolled not only by sea, but also by air.
You also gotta make sure nobody tries to steal the Azores for their beautiful nature.
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Portugal could never buy enough jets to stop the US. They need nukes. Not a ton! Just a few is enough to scare away other powers.
As for Russia, they're literally the farthest country in Europe from them! Getting to Portugal would mean Europe has collapsed and can't stop Russia, and once again, the only defense here would be nukes.
Portugal could never buy enough jets to stop the US
No, but Spain is right next to it and France isn't that far. Both likely to help. But why would they help Portugal if Portugal itself doesn't take meaningful steps to protect itself? You use a lot of exclamation points in your comments! That doesn't magically mean you're right.
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I'm assuming because American arms dealers like Lockheed Martin are losing a ton of business and America is rapidly losing the soft power and influence its build over the past 80 years
Why is that a bad thing ?
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It will be good for the USA to not be responsible for 70% of the NATO defense budget. We can close many military bases throughout Europe and pivot to Asia and form new alliances.
You think Asia will want to ally with you? Lol.
The only country which would do that is Russia.
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You claimed that Portugal not having been involved in major wars for almost a century (which was a false claim) was a reason for the country to not need jets, an argument which literally links the need for jets to being involved in major wars.
Now you've moved the goalposts and it's only "some" major wars that justify having jets, not "other" major wars, and which are the "jet requiring wars and which aren't" being entirelly up to you to define.
(FYI, Portugal used fighter jets in its Colonial Wars)
In summary, you've literally talked yourself into a "it's so because i say it's so argumentative corner".
The feeling that your discourse in all your posts here leaves is that you do not want Portugal to have jets, for reasons that have nothing at all to do with the geostrategical and defense needs and objectives of Portugal and is in fact related to the imperialistic objectives of certain, completelly different and non-friendly, countries being better served by a less well armed Europe, only you can't just outright come out and say it because that would severely damage the "opinion making" ability of your comments, hence the half-arsed circular argumentation balanced on top of nothing more than misinformation and unfundamented opinion.
Hey, maybe I'm wrong, so I'll leave it to others in this thread to make up their own minds about it.
My intention was to say that Portugal has not faced military threats. The fact that it was involved in unjust colonial wars is, in fact, a reason they shouldn't be allowed to have jets.
And no, I don't want them to waste money on military boondoggles that could be used to help actual people.
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The Portuguese Air Force is no longer expected to acquire the 5th generation F-35 fighter from Lockheed Martin, all due to the review of the US position towards NATO.
Asking stupid question... Isn't this kinda shit that got Kennedy killed? Fucking w the military industrial complex? Have those barons diversified enough to not care about this line of business or something? I thought this was kind of a backbone of our economy. So many jobs too.
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My intention was to say that Portugal has not faced military threats. The fact that it was involved in unjust colonial wars is, in fact, a reason they shouldn't be allowed to have jets.
And no, I don't want them to waste money on military boondoggles that could be used to help actual people.
It's hilarious that after the profound ignorance you've repeatedly displayed about Portugal whilst not being Portuguese and still claiming that you know better than the Portuguese, you still expect that anybody out there, no matter how stupid, will believe that having a genuine concern for the Portuguese (not wanting them to waste money) is in any way form or shape what drives your repeated attempts at convincing others that Portugal shouldn't have fighter jets.
Thanks for the entertainment!
