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  3. Duckstation(one of the most popular PS1 Emulators) dev plans on eventually dropping Linux support due to Linux users, especially Arch Linux users.

Duckstation(one of the most popular PS1 Emulators) dev plans on eventually dropping Linux support due to Linux users, especially Arch Linux users.

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  • S [email protected]

    OK I didn't know that, stupid move on his part then...
    What do you mean by likely illegally?

    D This user is from outside of this forum
    D This user is from outside of this forum
    [email protected]
    wrote last edited by
    #308

    Not a license expert but he changed the license to a more restricted one but did not ask contributors which the previous license may have required.

    1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • B [email protected]

      Oh. Time for a fork. -ND variants are not Free Software / Open Source.

      jackbydev@programming.devJ This user is from outside of this forum
      jackbydev@programming.devJ This user is from outside of this forum
      [email protected]
      wrote last edited by
      #309

      Having read a lot of the thread it sounds like that's sort of what's going on with the version on the AUR. Sounds like it is the old GPL v3 version and the dev doesn't wanna put the new CC BY-NC-ND version on the AUR themselves because they don't want to make an account there (understandable, not saying they should have to).

      The whole situation is sort of sad, but ultimately devs working on free (as in money, I now -ND is not libre) software need to do what they need to do to remain sane. If it's a CC BY-NC-ND emulator without Linux support versus no emulator at all I think we'd all want the first.

      I hope this thread can be an eye opener for folks to remember to treat volunteer devs with respect. (Not implying anyone here was part of the problem.)

      W 1 Reply Last reply
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      • mitm0@lemmy.worldM [email protected]

        Let me add to context:

        This developer hates the FOSS spirit & tells users to fuck off when they complain. There, done.

        daggermoon@lemmy.worldD This user is from outside of this forum
        daggermoon@lemmy.worldD This user is from outside of this forum
        [email protected]
        wrote last edited by
        #310

        He took an open source project and made it source available. I don't blame people for being upset.

        1 Reply Last reply
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        • A [email protected]

          The answer for this guy and other people stretched by supporting Linux is to say it's flatpak or nothing. Stop trying to build for each dist because it's not sustainable. If someone on a dist wants to maintain a package then let them take the heat if it is broken.

          daggermoon@lemmy.worldD This user is from outside of this forum
          daggermoon@lemmy.worldD This user is from outside of this forum
          [email protected]
          wrote last edited by
          #311

          I use the Duckstation flatpak funny enough

          D daggermoon@lemmy.worldD 2 Replies Last reply
          0
          • anyoldname3@lemmy.worldA [email protected]

            The licence doesn't permit derivative works, so no forks and no downstream packages.

            woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
            woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
            [email protected]
            wrote last edited by
            #312

            True but there is a workaround: a patchset to a specific upstream git commit and local compilation. Pretty much what PKGBUILD already does. LAME was developed this way for years. It was a patchset to reference source code under a nonfree license.

            1 Reply Last reply
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            • A [email protected]

              He's not obligated to provide that support. But the tone sure makes it seem expected.

              S This user is from outside of this forum
              S This user is from outside of this forum
              [email protected]
              wrote last edited by
              #313

              And android users are not obligated to give a good review after not receiving support.

              I have no problem with his actions, (if he doesn’t have the resources/energy/time to support on all platforms, who can complain about that?), but I don’t think he’s very good at the whole communicating with other humans part of software that sadly in the OSS world tends to fall on the same devs that do the work, he could have avoided both this comment thread and the angry android user above with zero extra effort by simply phrasing things better.

              The particular poor phrasing he chose seems to imply to me that he’s lumping all users of each platform together in his head, and each negative interaction builds on the previous, which isn’t the healthiest attitude, and does indeed make him look like an arsehole to anyone who’s just turned up and hasn’t yet done anything wrong.

              1 Reply Last reply
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              • Y [email protected]

                You're right, the license is Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 (weird choice for a code license, but OK)

                woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                [email protected]
                wrote last edited by
                #314

                CC4.0 licenses work for code. The language was made generic and no longer talks about performing music on stage and such.

                Better to use CC NC for non commercial works than to homebrew your own text. CC BY and CC BY SA are GPLv3 compatible.

                1 Reply Last reply
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                • S [email protected]

                  It's probably not, unless all contributors agreed to the license change.

                  woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                  woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                  [email protected]
                  wrote last edited by
                  #315

                  AFAIK they did.

                  1 Reply Last reply
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                  • B [email protected]

                    That's actually the version that's in the AUR, since they can't put newer (fixed) code in there from the new versions.

                    woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                    woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                    [email protected]
                    wrote last edited by
                    #316

                    AUR can. It’s just locally checking out the code from git and compiling it locally as well. I’m not a pro AUR maintainer but I’m not aware of a single AUR entry that ships software source code directly from AUR.

                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • D [email protected]

                      Copyright is always about distribution. So yes, you are allowed to fork, but you are not allowed to distribute the copyrighted content to other people. And with the No Derivatives clause you are also not allowed to change it.
                      You might be able to stay in the gray are by telling everyone "build it yourself", but nobody would be allowed to package it either.

                      woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                      woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                      [email protected]
                      wrote last edited by
                      #317

                      To write a script that checks out upstream code and compiles it locally is not a distribution by a 3rd party. The code comes directly from Stenzek. That’s why he puts the Arch check there.

                      If that script happens to do a search and replace of archlinux with some random jibberish (so the check is no longer for archlinux), that’s still not a distribution of modified code because all code modifications happen locally.

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • B [email protected]

                        While I understand and respect his feeling, in my limited experience, people that don't like when distributions package their software are often deranged.

                        Still, if you are using OS packages, your first stop should be OS fora / bug trackers, not upstream. Whoever is producing the distro/OS packages should engage with upstream if and when that's necessary. Upstream, especially small upstreams, really shouldn't be expected to deal with the craziness of Nix, Arch, Debian, and SteamOS all at the same time.

                        Users are, IME, mostly annoying. Sometimes (not often) I'm glad none of my software has any. At least at work I can point at the Teams / Slack / Jira conversation to prove they specifically asked for something completely different last week and I implemented that.

                        woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                        woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                        [email protected]
                        wrote last edited by
                        #318

                        Normal people would just invite distribution packagers to develop fixes upstream.

                        1 Reply Last reply
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                        • a_random_idiot@lemmy.worldA [email protected]

                          Sounds like hes just tired of dealing with idiots.

                          Which I can sympathise with.

                          woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                          woelkchen@lemmy.worldW This user is from outside of this forum
                          [email protected]
                          wrote last edited by
                          #319

                          Who forces him to respond to such messages on Discord? He can just not engage with people of whom he thinks are idiots.

                          If he doesn’t want to engage with users at all, maybe not set up a Discord in the first place.

                          Z 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • E [email protected]

                            You are the only one here carrying on a grudge and being vocal about it.

                            Are you a big fan of FOSS? How much are you going to support FOSS developers today hmmm?

                            A This user is from outside of this forum
                            A This user is from outside of this forum
                            [email protected]
                            wrote last edited by
                            #320

                            No. Every time FOSS comes up on Lemmy, FOSS adherents remind me why I'd never dip my toe in that mess.

                            I use some open source, but I also pay to support it, so I'm not true FOSS. See: Home Assistant. I contribute to the support at times, and I'm familiar with the frustrations - and the need to be consistently cordial. And thick skinned.

                            For all you know you're talking to someone on the spectrum. Perspective matters.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • M [email protected]

                              As someone who used to use arch for years, I can't stand its users who go around acting like running it is some herculean task that takes serious knowledge.

                              In reality its not much more than a misbehaved pet that requires constant attention and a blog post to be read every month or so. Not because its hard, but because its updates are just kinda slapped together and tossed out in the name of speed.

                              One of the biggest indicators of this is the AUR. For what it was worth, the Gentoo crowd it replaced at least knew how to compile a program.

                              Maybe learn to use git, tar, and make like literally anyone else on any other fucking distro.

                              A This user is from outside of this forum
                              A This user is from outside of this forum
                              [email protected]
                              wrote last edited by
                              #321

                              I don't use Arch but I have noticed a growing number of forums where people seem to talk about a lot of problems. I have used Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu etc. But Arch stands out as the distro that seems to have the most helpless users. Or is it the most broken distro?

                              A 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • jackbydev@programming.devJ [email protected]

                                Having read a lot of the thread it sounds like that's sort of what's going on with the version on the AUR. Sounds like it is the old GPL v3 version and the dev doesn't wanna put the new CC BY-NC-ND version on the AUR themselves because they don't want to make an account there (understandable, not saying they should have to).

                                The whole situation is sort of sad, but ultimately devs working on free (as in money, I now -ND is not libre) software need to do what they need to do to remain sane. If it's a CC BY-NC-ND emulator without Linux support versus no emulator at all I think we'd all want the first.

                                I hope this thread can be an eye opener for folks to remember to treat volunteer devs with respect. (Not implying anyone here was part of the problem.)

                                W This user is from outside of this forum
                                W This user is from outside of this forum
                                [email protected]
                                wrote last edited by
                                #322

                                No, on aur there's duckstation which is the old GPL3 version (stuck to one year ago) and duckstation-git which downloads that git with latest license and compiles on the end user machine. Both versions respect the dev intentions of "no packages" as it downloads the code and compiles it. The problem that it was about were probably two

                                1. Documentation on how to compile is insufficient. It depends on many libraries but doesn't say which exact version which causes issues at compile. Someone did the guesswork and wrote "instructions" (the pkgbuild file) for everyone but it's not the main dev and it breaks often

                                2. Because it downloads the code from git, it might be an issue if it's not tagged correctly, users get the latest commit instead of latest release and that's undesirable (didn't check for this case, but it was an issue for other emulators where non devs could run buggy code and complain about non-issues)

                                jackbydev@programming.devJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • P [email protected]

                                  Commit.

                                  Y This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Y This user is from outside of this forum
                                  [email protected]
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #323

                                  This is sad. Various programs have gone through the same type of situation with Debian stable. Debian is very conservative and doesn't ship upgrades quickly on their stable branch. Various authors have complained because they frequently get emails / bug reports from Debian users, who happen to be using a few-years-old version of their software.

                                  I do understand the frustration, but it does feel a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

                                  It's possible there are other solutions, like detecting whatever random issue is frustrating people and pop up a dialog.

                                  For example, if he's upset with it being broken on Wayland, why not detect Wayland and start off with a dialog: "Wayland is beta and is not officially supported. See FAQ here: [........]"

                                  Just blocking people feels over the top. But hey, it's his project, if he wants to go this way, it's his choice and right. Depending on the license he might get forked, but that's just how it goes.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  13
                                  • A [email protected]

                                    I don't use Arch but I have noticed a growing number of forums where people seem to talk about a lot of problems. I have used Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu etc. But Arch stands out as the distro that seems to have the most helpless users. Or is it the most broken distro?

                                    A This user is from outside of this forum
                                    A This user is from outside of this forum
                                    [email protected]
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #324

                                    I use arch on a couple of machines and for a rolling release I find it surprisingly hassle free. So with a scientifically relevant sample size of one 😉 - I declare that it's the people that are the problem.

                                    That is with regular updates though.

                                    I also have a gentoo box that is fine if you let it update every week or two, but tends to need more love and attention if you turn it on again after half a year. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the same for arch. Users who only update twice a year aren't really the target audience for rolling release.

                                    It probably also depends on your hardware and what your usecases are; as always using the right tool for the job helps

                                    nico_198x@europe.pubN 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • W [email protected]

                                      No, on aur there's duckstation which is the old GPL3 version (stuck to one year ago) and duckstation-git which downloads that git with latest license and compiles on the end user machine. Both versions respect the dev intentions of "no packages" as it downloads the code and compiles it. The problem that it was about were probably two

                                      1. Documentation on how to compile is insufficient. It depends on many libraries but doesn't say which exact version which causes issues at compile. Someone did the guesswork and wrote "instructions" (the pkgbuild file) for everyone but it's not the main dev and it breaks often

                                      2. Because it downloads the code from git, it might be an issue if it's not tagged correctly, users get the latest commit instead of latest release and that's undesirable (didn't check for this case, but it was an issue for other emulators where non devs could run buggy code and complain about non-issues)

                                      jackbydev@programming.devJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                      jackbydev@programming.devJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                      [email protected]
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #325

                                      Oh, that's weird, you'd think there'd be a way to tell whatever is on air to download a specific tag. Or like one that downloads the other indirectly. I haven't looked into pkgbuild or aur.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • S [email protected]

                                        Don't forget Linux devs are also Linux users. And they are just as much a con as the non dev users!

                                        J This user is from outside of this forum
                                        J This user is from outside of this forum
                                        [email protected]
                                        wrote last edited by [email protected]
                                        #326

                                        Sometimes devs are the most difficult users.

                                        "Why is this not working the way it should? Ok, yes I did rewrite how the code manages save data in the filesystem, but that shouldn't have any impact, I just thought it should make sure it only writes in 8k chunks because I read a comment somewhere that says it would increase ssd life by 3%, but I promise you it's exactly equivalent to the original code and the problem must be elsewhere, not my patch. I patched dozens of other packages without issue with my 8k barrier strategy without any problems"

                                        Devs come up with wild ideas, rewrite stuff, fail to mention it until you run into it, then explain why it doesn't matter and stubbornly refuse to at least try without their weird change.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        1
                                        • mudman@fedia.ioM [email protected]

                                          Yeah, PS2 is standalone business still. And in its defense, PCSX2 is super user friendly as a standalone package and supports most of the shared stuff you'd want from Retroarch anyway.

                                          endymion_mallorn@kbin.melroy.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
                                          endymion_mallorn@kbin.melroy.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
                                          [email protected]
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #327

                                          Either PCSX2 or Play!, yeah.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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