Billionaire Sunjay Kapur has died after swallowing a bee at a polo match
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They are both part of the hymenoptera order. They are not the same, but they are related evolutionarily and thus can still be relevant to discussion about bees.
They’re not relevant to this discussion, at all. In general, when a bee stings a person they die because their stinger along with their insides rip out of them. This doesn’t happen with wasps, including yellow jackets. They can and will sting over and over.
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Edit, I am not saying "do this". I was running my ideas past this medical person in the hope of being told what is wring with them.
As a civilian what I know is hit the notch in hard cartilege approx 2 fingers below the Adam's apple, incision half an inch deep, and if you get the tube in you have to breathe for them.
And that you should only do it if there are no medical people present and the person is obviously dying.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]So... how do you tell an airway obstruction requiring an improvised tracheotomy and a similarly-presenting respiratory distress (resulting from, say, catastrophically low blood potassium) apart? Because if you get that wrong suddenly someone, who needed at worst an hour of IV therapy and a flintstone chewable to make a full recovery, is drowning in their own blood.
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So... how do you tell an airway obstruction requiring an improvised tracheotomy and a similarly-presenting respiratory distress (resulting from, say, catastrophically low blood potassium) apart? Because if you get that wrong suddenly someone, who needed at worst an hour of IV therapy and a flintstone chewable to make a full recovery, is drowning in their own blood.
Thank you, this is the kind of reply I was hoping for. I would love more information.
So, if the person has completely stopped breathing, and ambulances are 20+ minutes away, should I limit my response to attempted CPR?
Is it your opinion even if they have been stung by a bee etc?
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Edit, I am not saying "do this". I was running my ideas past this medical person in the hope of being told what is wring with them.
As a civilian what I know is hit the notch in hard cartilege approx 2 fingers below the Adam's apple, incision half an inch deep, and if you get the tube in you have to breathe for them.
And that you should only do it if there are no medical people present and the person is obviously dying.
Nothing beats a layman explaining the job most professionals won't do to a professional who does it.
BTW: This is all wrong and will make things worse.
Please don't do what this dude writes. -
Thank you, this is the kind of reply I was hoping for. I would love more information.
So, if the person has completely stopped breathing, and ambulances are 20+ minutes away, should I limit my response to attempted CPR?
Is it your opinion even if they have been stung by a bee etc?
So, if the person has completely stopped breathing, and ambulances are 20+ minutes away, should I limit my response to attempted CPR?
The answer is: YES
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Thank you, this is the kind of reply I was hoping for. I would love more information.
So, if the person has completely stopped breathing, and ambulances are 20+ minutes away, should I limit my response to attempted CPR?
Is it your opinion even if they have been stung by a bee etc?
wrote on last edited by [email protected]I'm assuming you've contacted 911 / emergency services since you know that the ambulance is 20 minutes away. In that case, the dispatcher will step you through an emergency diagnosis and if such an extreme action is warranted either they will put you in touch with a medical professional who can instruct you on safe procedure, or they will be a qualified paramedic and instruct you themselves. However that is EXTREMELY unlikely, tracheotomy are almost never warranted (outside of television) in emergency situations, as stabbing someone in the neck is not a trivial thing to do. In my region the procedure isn't even taught to first responders (Edit: I was half wrong, paramedics still learn it but EMTs do not) (Edit 2: No, I was right! Neither are taught it) as it's long been surpassed by modern intubation techniques and treatments like fast-acting anaphylaxis medications.
In short, follow the guidelines you are taught in your first aid class and contact emergency services. Don't stab someone in the neck.
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With anaphylactic shock, the timeline could be literally seconds. He could be dead before they even figure out what's wrong.
Anaphylaxis sets in fast,but not within seconds - we are talking more like a couple of minutes and they can be treated.
Adrenaline is one component of the treatment besides other medications (that actually "counteracts" the anaphylactic reaction, Adrenaline more or less is mainly used to buy time and fight the worst symptoms).Airway management, fluid management, etc. are other things we need to consider.
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They’re not relevant to this discussion, at all. In general, when a bee stings a person they die because their stinger along with their insides rip out of them. This doesn’t happen with wasps, including yellow jackets. They can and will sting over and over.
Because their stingers are smooth, like bumblebees and carpenter bees. Are those not related either??
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Honestly, I think it was ignorance and/or hubris. He was either unaware of his allergy (miraculously never stung before, or developed allergy later in life), or he was kind of aware, but never assumed anything could go wrong.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -- Hanlon's Razor.
I've never been to a billionaire polo match [sad trumpet] but I'd assume that there be some medical staff, like you'd find at any major sporting event where injury is likely. On the other hand, I could see how the staff was prepared for a broken neck and not considering bee stings. Either way, it's pretty funny.
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With anaphylactic shock, the timeline could be literally seconds. He could be dead before they even figure out what's wrong.
This is where caring counts. We've all seen videos where 'dad reflexes' kick in and someone reacts in micro-seconds to save a kid. Medical staff was getting paid to show up and be on stand-by. They were expecting a broken leg, or other trauma.
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I don't know which med school or civilian lifesaving courses you attend - but emergency cricothyrotomy surely isn't a skill that is taught and mastered by any of these I teach.
Cric is a delicate skill that needs repetition and knowledge - it's far from easy and not even close to what is shown in some bad TV shows.
As it came up here a bit of a longer explanation.
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Airway management contains much more than just "getting a hole into the neck" - it starts with nebulised adrenaline (which works wonders but must be used in moderation due to the side effects), regular endotracheal intubation with a (preferably video)laryngoscope, if necessary with a tube that is resistant against swelling(woodbridge tube) before a cricothyrotomy (not a tracheotomy,see below) is performed - and is supported by intravasal drugs (mostly adrenaline, a glucocorticoid and H1 blockers, in some cases also a beta2 antagonist and a anticholinergic agent). A cric is always the last choice due to the high risk to benefit ratio.
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Even a qualified responder won't do a tracheotomy - emergency tracheotomies are extremly rare and basically only necessary when either the pharyngeal structures are damaged beyond rescue (due to trauma, cancer or some real rare diseases. This is not the case in anaphylaxis. The reasons for a tracheotomy not being used are many. It takes a lot of time,is far harder to achieve (getting between the tracheal cartilage is not as easy as it sounds), the risk of "hitting" structures that are vital to the patient are considerable (seen a patient who's v.jug. ran over the spot) and the required training to do it is considerable - Besides ENTs and sometimes intensivists around here none therefore is even trained to do it anymore. I occasionally teach emergency surgical techniques to interns and med students and we don't do so,beyond explaining the core concept, neither does any uni in central or northern Europe that I know of, same goes for AU/NZ.
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A "cric" is far easier, but still takes some skill - both needle or open surgical cric(I would prefer the later) does require correct identification of the landmarks (which can be tough), good surgical technique and mainly: Training - lots of it. We therefore teach paramedics only a needle based approach (in combination with jet ventilation) - and tbh, most EM docs are not that "up to standard" in this technique as well - even though a cric is far easier than a trach.
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The technique mentioned here will, with a 95% chance, not lead to any airway access, damage the thyroid (which bleeds like fuck) or the vagina carotica (the structure that contains the large vessels in the neck as well as the nervus vagus). If that happens the patient is usually beyond rescue. A case that, even if in cardiac arrest, had at least a slim chance of survival, will then certainly die - post anaphylaxis arrests with good bystander CPR have a somewhat improved prognosis - considering that that a laymans trach likely would diminish chest compression quality for minutes this would simply take that chance away from the patient.
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Whoever thinks he needs to teach that in civilan responder courses needs to be fired - it's not part in any curriculum worldwide as they are all more or less based on the same guidelines.
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I just learned about solitary bees a few years ago. For some reason it has never cross my mind until I was researching these unusual blue bees in my garden which turned out to bee Blue Banded Bee which is awesome:
https://www.fotocommunity.com/photo/blue-banded-bee-flight-karthikphotography/27046849
Wow! That's amazing, I've never heard of a blue bee. That's just really cool. I bet it was confusing when you first saw it. I've heard of/seen solitary bees but didn't think about it. Did a little beekeeping work as a kid.
We've got a couple weird ones on the other side of the pond that I've been around. (wasps, actually)
Cow killer/Red velvet ant it's sting is in the top 10 for most painful. They're beautiful.
Cicada Killers are huge, 5cm/2in long. I had one fall out of a tree with a cicada right next to me. I thought it was birds fighting.
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Wow! That's amazing, I've never heard of a blue bee. That's just really cool. I bet it was confusing when you first saw it. I've heard of/seen solitary bees but didn't think about it. Did a little beekeeping work as a kid.
We've got a couple weird ones on the other side of the pond that I've been around. (wasps, actually)
Cow killer/Red velvet ant it's sting is in the top 10 for most painful. They're beautiful.
Cicada Killers are huge, 5cm/2in long. I had one fall out of a tree with a cicada right next to me. I thought it was birds fighting.
thanks for sharing these cool wasps! We have some very interesting ones here in Thailand as well and I've seen them dig trenches just tossing sand around half a meter up which just shows how crazy strong they actually are so incredibly don't doubt those stings sting
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Nothing beats a layman explaining the job most professionals won't do to a professional who does it.
BTW: This is all wrong and will make things worse.
Please don't do what this dude writes.Yikes. It was not meant to be advice. Sorry for not making that clearer. I have edited the original comment.
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I'm assuming you've contacted 911 / emergency services since you know that the ambulance is 20 minutes away. In that case, the dispatcher will step you through an emergency diagnosis and if such an extreme action is warranted either they will put you in touch with a medical professional who can instruct you on safe procedure, or they will be a qualified paramedic and instruct you themselves. However that is EXTREMELY unlikely, tracheotomy are almost never warranted (outside of television) in emergency situations, as stabbing someone in the neck is not a trivial thing to do. In my region the procedure isn't even taught to first responders (Edit: I was half wrong, paramedics still learn it but EMTs do not) (Edit 2: No, I was right! Neither are taught it) as it's long been surpassed by modern intubation techniques and treatments like fast-acting anaphylaxis medications.
In short, follow the guidelines you are taught in your first aid class and contact emergency services. Don't stab someone in the neck.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Thank you for this advice. I always contact emergency services immediately if I find someone who is having a serious health event.
However, I spend time in remote areas where emergency services are sometimes an hour away. There is not always mobile phone coverage but to date I have not found anyone in that situation and my longest wait has been half an hour in an urban location.
Neither are taught it
This is a little disappointing, because it sounds like if someone needed it they will not be given it by emergency services. I can only hope that rural responders are taught a little more.
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So, if the person has completely stopped breathing, and ambulances are 20+ minutes away, should I limit my response to attempted CPR?
The answer is: YES
Thank you!
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Because their stingers are smooth, like bumblebees and carpenter bees. Are those not related either??
Do they die when they sting humans once? No? Then they’re not relevant lol.
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How have you never been stung by a bee? I’m genuinely asking.
I’ve been stung like a dozen times.
Idk. I don't fuck with them, they don't fuck with me. Bees are pretty docile in my experience. Been stung plenty by wasps, though.
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Do they die when they sting humans once? No? Then they’re not relevant lol.
One of the parent comments is correcting someone about not all bees dying when they sting, holy moly please learn to read.
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One of the parent comments is correcting someone about not all bees dying when they sting, holy moly please learn to read.
Yeh, and like I said - yellow jackets are not bees lol. They’re wasps. Irrelevant.
