Bluesky is more open than you think.
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Sign ups aren't actually open though, but I can generate an invite code.
Honestly, less than 3K independent PDS is genuinely insane. That's about 14,000 users per PDS provider. For comparison, if Lemmy had that same kind of concentration, there'd be 3-4 instances. PDS providers are also piss easy to host.
Thank you for your feedback! No need for a code, but knowing that sign ups are disabled is already a sign
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So bluesky is as decentralized as mastodon, but you achieve that by running a relay instead of a server? Do I have that right?
No, mastodon is more decentralised than bluesky, but its designed so that PDSes aren't that important, unlike mastodon.
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I don't think "decentralised" is the word y'all are disagreeing on. Define platform. Because I think the "platform" you're talking about is the technology underpinning Bluesky (AT Protocol), which is decentralised, and others here are talking about the Bluesky "platform" itself, as in the service which is a single, centralised implementation of AT Protocol.
I use them interchanagbly, which has proved to be a mistake.
Kinda like how mastodon and fediverse are used interchangably. -
That seems a very good way to phrase it.
The next issue then becomes cost. Which affects Lemmy as well: first there is the requisite effort to set up and self-host even a tiny instance (especially as it relates to potential spam and CSAM attacks), and second the network traffic costs. The latter may be tiny for a single user who only subscribes to a handful of communities, but someone trying to browse All and wanting everything to be available for their perusal (even if deleted soon-ish for storage reasons) will bear a much higher burden. Which depending on local costs may be trivially easy... or prohibitively expensive, but in either case the more data that someone wants to pull in the higher the cost.
And I imagine that Bluesky is either similar, or significantly worse.
Bluesky would work better for that, since everything would be on the AppView. Hosting multiple appviews would be intensive on the relays, but different ones could keep content for different amounts of time.
I think AP works better when you don't need or want all the information to be available at once.
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I see a lot of misinformation about bluesky here, so I want to address a lot of the talking points against atproto/bluesky.
This is partially inspired by accounts like mastodon migration and feditips being really annoying about bluesky.
How Bluesky Works
I see a lot of people misunderstanding how it works.
The network has three main parts:- A PDS -- This stands for Personal Data Server. These store information in records, like who you are following, your posts, who you are blocking and your images.
- A relay -- These crawl PDSes and keep a copy of all the records on them. They give a "Firehose" of all the data on the network (that they crawled).
- An AppView -- These index and work through the data from the firehose. All interactions are handled through these, meaning if someone follows me on bluesky, that
app.bsky.graph.followrecord will be crawled by the relay, and recieved by the AppView. https://bsky.app/ is an Appview. Appviews don't always have to use the relays, https://whtwnd.com/ connects to PDSes directly.
This is different to ActivityPub, where if I follow someone, my server sends that information directly to the other person's server.
Common misconceptions
An atproto relay is too expensive to run.
https://atproto.africa/ is a second full-network relay run by the blacksky team. We already have a second relay, and they're not even that expensive to run anymore, a lot of people run non-archival (meaning it doesn't backfill every post) relays for less than $40 a month.
There is no instances available except for bsky.social
bsky.social isn't actually an instance, its just the domain name assigned to users by default. This is explained here: https://app.wafrn.net/fediverse/post/f8fc8da8-cd7e-4fae-a895-ac59dc28088f
Wafrn has (opt-in) bluesky support, they act as a PDS and AppView, so if bluesky disappears tomorrow they can switch to the atproto.africa relay. (There is DID:PLC which is a problem, but I'll get to that later.)
You can't defederate bsky.social, this proves atproto is centralised!
https://app.wafrn.net/fediverse/post/f8fc8da8-cd7e-4fae-a895-ac59dc28088f also explains this, bsky.social is just the name assigned to users, each PDS has names like https://brittlegill.us-west.host.bsky.network/ (where my account is).
While you could ignore records from a specific PDS on the App layer, its pretty pointless, since atproto is portable/content addressed, meaning a user could seamlessly move to another PDS. (AP does support moving, but its pretty seamful.)
(While I was writing this someone posted a pretty good blogpost about this: https://blog.cyrneko.eu/there-is-no-bsky-social-instance)
Bluesky can censor people in turkey, this proves they're centralised!
Those posts weren't removed, people on third party bluesky apps in turkey could still see them.
People in Turkey are automatically subscribed to a Moderation Service which hides those posts, as the government requires it.
If a person unsubscribes, or uses a third party app/server the posts are still there.Bluesky isn't decentralised as someone was banned for pointing out the head of T&S liked jailbait porn.
That person came back on a different PDS. They literally are still on bluesky because they joined a different server.
Bluesky went down due to a DDoS, this proves they are centralised!
The DDoS only crashed the Bluesky PDSes. People self hosting were fine.
Wafrn
Wafrn is a federated tumblr alternative. It started off as a tumblr clone, the dev added AP support, and eventually, Atproto support.
Its a great example of how bluesky can be built on.
If bluesky disappeared tomorrow, Wafrn could switch relays to atproto.africa, and still interact with people on other PDSes.
AppViewLite
appviewlite is a cool project I forgot to mention in the original post. It lets you self host an extremely lightweight Appview.
You can crawl PDSes yourself, eliminating the need for a relay.
https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLiteThe main reason I made this post is because so many people are blindly anti-atproto, without fully understanding how it works and how it can be improved.
There is obviously problems with it, but it does a lot right. (There's a lot ActivityPub should do, like content addressing, DIDs and composable moderation).
I also think we could do with a better bridge. bridgy isn't really cutting it right now.
Note on did:plc, its the only centralised part of the network as of now, its essentially the underlying ID every account has. It is possible to use a did:web id instead, which is tied to a website name.
maybe open technically. but my impression of BlueSky is that it is full of neoliberal status quo apologists. would be happy to be wrong.
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Bluesky would work better for that, since everything would be on the AppView. Hosting multiple appviews would be intensive on the relays, but different ones could keep content for different amounts of time.
I think AP works better when you don't need or want all the information to be available at once.
One issue for me, and this is also true of Mastodon and by extension Mbin, is that I greatly prefer the voting and focus on a topic area rather than person. X / Twitter / Mastodon / Bluesky is where celebrities go to increase their profits, fame, and relevance, while Reddit / Lemmy / PieFed (/ + nodeBB + flarum + others) are where we discuss matters of import. I'm not criticizing your post here - this is definitely the correct community to discuss such matters:-) - just interjecting my personal preferences into the conversation, to disclose my own biases.
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One issue for me, and this is also true of Mastodon and by extension Mbin, is that I greatly prefer the voting and focus on a topic area rather than person. X / Twitter / Mastodon / Bluesky is where celebrities go to increase their profits, fame, and relevance, while Reddit / Lemmy / PieFed (/ + nodeBB + flarum + others) are where we discuss matters of import. I'm not criticizing your post here - this is definitely the correct community to discuss such matters:-) - just interjecting my personal preferences into the conversation, to disclose my own biases.
I like both formats, but I do prefer forum-style conversation.
https://frontpage.fyi/ is a link-aggregator built on atproto.
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maybe open technically. but my impression of BlueSky is that it is full of neoliberal status quo apologists. would be happy to be wrong.
Yes, it is, but so is mastodon, if I curate my feed, I can exclude them from it.
this is about the technical aspects of bluesky/atproto. -
I like both formats, but I do prefer forum-style conversation.
https://frontpage.fyi/ is a link-aggregator built on atproto.
Very nice
I hope we will see more applications for these protocols as time passes. -
I like both formats, but I do prefer forum-style conversation.
https://frontpage.fyi/ is a link-aggregator built on atproto.
Last post 4 days ago, that makes Lemmy look like a beehive
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Should BSky go login wall one day the same way Twitter does, then wafrn wouldn't be an alternative
The login wall is set by the user not by Bluesky. It’s a privacy setting
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No, mastodon is more decentralised than bluesky, but its designed so that PDSes aren't that important, unlike mastodon.
I would argue that’s centralisation. Instances are inherently centralised, they own the user identity, relationships and data. A user “migration” which isn’t really a migration it’s an alt account on another server, if that server is blocking or is blocked then that users social graph can be significantly impacted. There’s no way to really migrate their content.
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Last post 4 days ago, that makes Lemmy look like a beehive
Yeah, it doesn't even have communities.
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Yeah, it doesn't even have communities.
https://azsky.app/ tries to use Bluesky's feeds to simulate something like communities. I think it focuses too much on piggybacking off bsky content to be useful though, like forums and microblogs are different paradigms and a different UI isn't going to change that.
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The login wall is set by the user not by Bluesky. It’s a privacy setting
I was talking about an enshittification scenario similar to Twitter
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I would argue that’s centralisation. Instances are inherently centralised, they own the user identity, relationships and data. A user “migration” which isn’t really a migration it’s an alt account on another server, if that server is blocking or is blocked then that users social graph can be significantly impacted. There’s no way to really migrate their content.
Instances are centralised, but the network isn't.
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In theory Bluesky users have the option to switch, but in practice they don't
36 Million users can't just switch to other servers only catering for ~15,000 users.mastodon.social has ~30% of the active users, which is a lot, but if it went down Mastodon would continue working for most users.
You can't compare the 99.96% market share Bluesky has with that.
Also: hosting PDSes is piss easy, if there was demand for people to move to other servers, more PDSes would pop up.
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Last post 4 days ago, that makes Lemmy look like a beehive
I blame this on an UX blunder.
Bluesky users are taught not to enter their Bluesky passwords to enter different apps, but rather create a different "app password" for each one. Then Frontpage went OAuth which directs users to Bluesky login page.
Bluesky brings us a different login page for OAuth use
and obviously does not remember that we are already logged in in the same browser.This of course means that we have to enter a Bluesky password to a slightly different-looking website - a somewhat fishy way to authenticate a user...
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There are only 15,000 out of 36 Million users that are on servers not owned by Bluesky.
99.96% of users being on one instance isn't Decentralised even if the technology supports it in theory.
If 99.96% of users were on lemmy.world, I wouldn't call lemmy decentralised even if the technology allows it in theory.🧮 Decentralization Scoring System (v1.3)
Breakdown (Estimates)Platform Score Visualization 
Email95 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 
Lemmy79 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 
Mastodon74 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 🟣 PeerTube 94 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 
Pixelfed42 🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧 
Bluesky14 🟥🟥🟥 🟥 Reddit 3 🟥 I'm coming back to this,
I think the self-hosting bit is a bit flawed, its almost entirely based on opinion.
For example, I'd have taken a lot of points from email as its all too easy to get blacklisted for doing everything right, and setting up everything is a pain. Cory Doctorow (Author and popular blogger) got on a spam-blocklist for self-hosting his newsletter, and it was an effort for him to get himself off it. It would be impossible for an average joe to get off a blocklist.
You can self-host old versions of reddit, I'd have given it a few points.
Self hosting a PDS is pretty popular, but the average PDS has less users than mastodon instances.
Its also not very poorly documented, hosting the official PDS is just running three commands: https://atproto.com/guides/self-hosting#preparation-for-self-hosting-pds . they have a docker for it as well.
Maybe not bluesky itself, but there is lots of atproto AppViews (essentially clients) which do stuff. Would you classify frontpage.fyi as a client?
There is clients for bluesky itself anyway, graysky, deck[.]blue, AppViewLite, the official apps, deer[.]social gander[.]social tapestry, surf, phoenix (made by the people who made ivory), skeets (real app), bluejeans, off the top of my head.
I think the content share part doesn't really apply to bluesky since everything is portable, so if bsky disappeared, all content would still exist and be referenceable. Unlike AP based stuff, where everything is tied to its host server.
