How do you imagine the world would look today if the Axis powers had won World War II?
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Alternate history is one of my favorite topics, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
Nationalism is in full swing by WW2 so any Non-contagious territories would be in constant rebellion. Especially with nazi ideology, I imagine the 2nd half of the 20th century would have considerably more conflict that whay we did get.
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Great answer, do you see any internal tensions within the Axis that could foreseeably have caused collapse comparable to say Soviet communism's collapse in the real world? How dependant were they on Hitler and Mussolini as individuals?
Not OP, but Germany was likely going to experience a deep recession after the war. However, it is likely that the Nazis would push the cost of the economy shrinking to its enslaved peoples. There would likely be French deindustrialization, a Polish genocide, and building of cruel colonial networks around Germany. The Nazi Party could probably survive Hitler; I suspect the political functioning would be similar to China's Politboro but with a more independent military.
Italy could possibly see the fascist government fall. Mussolini wasn't in control of Italy the same way that Hitler was of Germany. I could see a political crisis occur in Italy where the Italian government falls apart, Germany stabilizes Italian possessions, then Germany keeps the Italian possessions after the new government doesn't adequately swear fealty to Germany.
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You may be interested in The Man in the High Castle it's both a novel by Phillip K. Dick and TV show on Amazon Prime that explores exactly that premise
Wolfenstein: The New Order also explores this idea. Though I doubt it's as realistic.
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Thanks for another great answer. I realise now that the comparison with Soviet wasn't very thoughtful of me. I just wanted to imagine something that would have broken up the Nazi German hegemony from the inside.
Another thought is that American products and culture probably are popular partly because they were winners in World War 2.
American culture was a major export during the Great Depression, so it is likely that American culture would continue to be an export unless the USA ceased to exist.
I would just expect Nazi Germany to censor and control some of America's cultural exports. Hitler liked Disney movies, for instance. However, jazz was banned.
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Germany was not interested in the Middle East. They wanted Lebensraum in Eastern Europe and Russia. The Gulf Monarchies would have sold them oil in the same way they have been doing to the US as hegemon. There may have been joint ventures like Saudi Aramco but there wouldn't have been CIA coups and regime changes because there would be no Soviet threat.
The Gulf Monarchies would have sold them oil in the same way they have been doing to the US as hegemon.
And the USA has significantly intervened in Middle East politics.
It is likely that Nazi Germany would intervene in the Middle East to secure its oil; the various nation-states were still forming and borders were somewhat volatile. Germany would likely intervene to ensure that the oil flows.
Also, after a while, the German state would need another infusion of money and cheap Arab oil would be a perfect resource to bring under control of the Nazi state.
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Wolfenstein: The New Order also explores this idea. Though I doubt it's as realistic.
To be fair Man in the High Castle has the assassination of FDR succeed because of time travel, right? It's super science either way. The MitHC Hitler studies postwar films and comes to the conclusion that he can't win if FDR guides America out of the Depression.
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Alternate history is one of my favorite topics, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]The world loves eugenics, and it is considered "civilised" to kill disabled infants. Sterilisation programs of indigenous people and minorities are carried out across Europe, North America, and Asia.
A rule of power International order, where there are spheres of influence for the big players, Japan, Germany, USA, and maybe Russia and India.A very racist USA that has annexed Canada and maybe more of Mexico, debates about reinstating slavery are a common part of political discourse.
UK is run by incompetent fascists, but the empire has collapsed so tensions build. I'm not sure who the "enemy" would be - maybe a violent revolution that leads to the end of the monarchy? Maybe German "Peacekeepers" on the streets to neutralise the communist subversive threat. Maybe invasion to reannex Ireland as Irish independence is blamed for things falling apart?
British intelligensia fled to Aus-NZ, causing demographic strife as the influx of new comers puts strains on the countries, but also an influx of ideas and they could evolve into a bastion of Liberalism, if not progressive ideas. Probably define selves as not Nazi, and will do a lot of soul searching (or just ignore) treatment of indigenous peoples.
South America probably more stable and more left wing without US meddling and the influx of Nazis. But my South American history is quite weak, so I know I'm not accounting for an awful lot. That, or the fascist US attempts to invade and has a Vietnam experience in Central America.
India as a fascist Hindustan, allied with Japan.
Imperial Japan controls much of Asia either directly or indirectly. The official story is that Japan is the liberator of Asia, having freed Asia from European imperialism, but life is hard for many people, especially ethnic minorities of China and Siberia who have few rights and are often sterilised while their culture is erased. Meanwhile wealth and value is extracted for the metropole.
Asia would certainly have some armed revolution movements, especially in western China and Northern Siberia. A much larger Mongolia, Tibet, unified Korea, Manchuko, and maybe some new nations in Southern China as indepent states, and maybe Turkistan.Indochina would be wild. Not sure how it would end up, but the road would be very different.
Would Middle East be better off? Maybe. [Edit: Sykes Picot was 1st World War, stupid sleep addled brain]
The mess of Sykes-Picot wouldn't happen, and no installation of British/French puppets.Turkey likes USSR's weakening, but now Germany is a worry.
German superstate may well invade to control oil in the 50s/60s though. Which would be very bad news for the Zionists, who are a group of Socialist Jews who run a smattering of self sufficient communities across the Middle East.
By a bizzare twist of fate the Kurds still end up without their own nation and as pawns in games between other powers.Africa would be embroiled in the second scramble for Africa where Germany, Japan, and the USA fight via proxies if not directly for control over the former French and British colonies. Each side supporting partisans and independence movements against the other. Hindustan might join in too, but has to sort its (Edit: accursed autocorrect) home situation out first. Fascist Kingdom of Britain and Australia might do lots of espionage here against each other, seeing themselves as legitimate successor to the UK.
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Alternate history is one of my favorite topics, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
We’re about to find out
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Alternate history is one of my favorite topics, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]All of these answers are super interesting and well thought out. Many of them line up with I would think, except for one thing. Hitler was no spring chicken during the war. He was 56 years old when he died, under the total crushing stress of leading a nation at war, and being pumped full of a truly fascinating cocktail of drugs by his personal physician. Depending on factors (mostly the war, which you dont specify in your prompt how they won), I don't see him living much past 1945. And I don't see the Reich lasting as a stable state much past that.
I feel like people are underestimating the extent to which Hitler set his subordinates against each other, so that none could accumulate enough power to challenge him. He would kill or sacrifice allies when it became convenient or expedient (remember the night of long knives?) and he avoided appointing a successor. Many speculative fiction works put Albert Speer in this role, but I think its more likely that the Nazi state descends into infighting, and different people fight for the top spot before Hitler is cold.
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To be fair Man in the High Castle has the assassination of FDR succeed because of time travel, right? It's super science either way. The MitHC Hitler studies postwar films and comes to the conclusion that he can't win if FDR guides America out of the Depression.
Maybe put a spoiler tag around that?
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A lot of scientific breakthroughs are made like this. Internet was made by the military. Rockets were made because we were trying to outarm each other.
While it would be best if we didn’t kill each other, the optimised outcome is getting scientific progress while killing each other. The silver lining of concentration camps is the human experimentation which gave solid evidence for solid science.
The silver lining of concentration camps is the human experimentation which gave solid evidence for solid science.
There is no such thing as a silver lining to that. What Mengele and his goons did had no scientific backing, produced nothing but tortured and maimed kids, while killing thousands more to prove some crude ideas
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Not OP, but Germany was likely going to experience a deep recession after the war. However, it is likely that the Nazis would push the cost of the economy shrinking to its enslaved peoples. There would likely be French deindustrialization, a Polish genocide, and building of cruel colonial networks around Germany. The Nazi Party could probably survive Hitler; I suspect the political functioning would be similar to China's Politboro but with a more independent military.
Italy could possibly see the fascist government fall. Mussolini wasn't in control of Italy the same way that Hitler was of Germany. I could see a political crisis occur in Italy where the Italian government falls apart, Germany stabilizes Italian possessions, then Germany keeps the Italian possessions after the new government doesn't adequately swear fealty to Germany.
Thank you, those are some interesting perspectives!
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Alternate history is one of my favorite topics, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]The fact that the Axis & Allied powers had nations as mascots for the masses to cheer/boo for has done nothing but dull our collective perception of reality: it's corps all the way down, and They won.
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The silver lining of concentration camps is the human experimentation which gave solid evidence for solid science.
There is no such thing as a silver lining to that. What Mengele and his goons did had no scientific backing, produced nothing but tortured and maimed kids, while killing thousands more to prove some crude ideas
They did conduct human experiments with scientific goals in mind. The ethics were questionable (to say the least).
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They did conduct human experiments with scientific goals in mind. The ethics were questionable (to say the least).
But they didn't even follow the scientific method or produce decent data.
We know perhaps marginally more from them, but the poor note taking and lack of systemisation make both Mengele's, and Japan's Unit 731, "experiments" close to useless.
And that's disregarding all the ethical issues that modern non-fascist people of ethics have.
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There are several events that might have had the possibility to turn the war:
- Germany doesn't attack France at all, concentrating their forces in the east which gives the UK fewer reasons to join the war
- Japan doesn't attack Pearl Harbor so the USA don't join the war (yet)
- Operation Mincemeat fails and the Axis keeps their troops in Sicily, preventing the Allies from establishing a base in the Mediterranean.
- Axis spies uncover the plans for D-Day before it happens, Germany bombs the landing boats and thousands of Allied soldiers drown before they can reach land
- The Manhattan Project fails to produce a working nuclear bomb. Most of Germany and Italy has already fallen but Japan stays strong and can eventually send troops to Europe.
How about Churchill was forced from government along with Chamberlain after the catastrophe in Norway at the start of the war, and doesn't end up Prime Minister?
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On top of that, Jews fleeing from Europe would still need a place to live and there is a decent chance that the British would still give up Palestine to form Israel. Maybe a few years later and with a few details changed but overall not much of a difference.
Israel exists due to US support for Heganah and similar groups, and global guilt following the public awareness of the Holocaust.
Britain being defeated would probably led to a loss of empire, and with Palestine outside British control the "memo to aid in creation of a Jewish state" would cease, there'd still be Jewish terrorists groups, but it'd go very differently without US power projection and Nazi sphere of influence.
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They did conduct human experiments with scientific goals in mind. The ethics were questionable (to say the least).
My 6 year old nephew also has a scientific goal in mind when he launches dirt with his shovel catapult. Doesn't mean that he produces anything useful
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Maybe put a spoiler tag around that?
wrote on last edited by [email protected]The book was published in 1962.
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My 6 year old nephew also has a scientific goal in mind when he launches dirt with his shovel catapult. Doesn't mean that he produces anything useful
No, he doesn’t.
