Is it common for hetero women to enjoy taking charge during intimacy and switch between who's leading? (I was raised in a traditional family so I'm dumb)
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I'll give you some context: I (22M) was raised to believe that heterosexuality and its associated biological drives naturally resulted in paternalistic relationship structures where the man has absolute power and the woman is his willing subject. This dynamic was seen as natural and desirable as long as the man led in good faith. As such, men were active partners who showed initiative, while women were passive partners that responded to a man's advances. Male passivity and female initiative were viewed as unnatural desires.
My tendency to treat others with soft-spoken gentleness and careful consideration instead of stern authority and quick decisiveness made me originally believe that I was incompatible with women despite being attracted to them. I also viscerally hated the idea of subjugating or controlling others because it felt evil. I wanted to work with a partner, not above her.
Additionally, I had fantasies about women initiating affection, taking active roles during intimacy, and expressing a primal hunger to take the reins, fantasies which I believed were impossible to fulfill because my upbringing taught me that female initiative fundamentally did not exist anywhere except in niche fetishes (e.g. femdom), and male passivity would be a turn-off.
The dynamic I find appealing is one in which a partner and I are excited to pursue each other's pleasure by mutually initiating affection/intimacy and taking turns swapping between active and passive roles. My worry is that there aren't a lot of women who have that drive to pursue their partners in an assertive manner. What is that impression based on, you ask? Not much, except the "values" I was raised with and the trashy adult sites that I've looked at over the years.
It may be worth noting that I hate BDSM and power exchange dynamics where one partner is subject to another's command and absolute control. What I crave is a consensual, passionate, and attentive lead over someone's pleasure from a place of love, not domination, and for that initiative to change fluidly between partners.
Is this something with a substantial presence in the real world? How might I find partners who see intimacy in this way as opposed to the "lay down and take it" model? Usually the people on Lemmy have a lot of decently helpful and non-regressive takes, so I'm interested in the opinions here. Thanks!
(And yes, I know that there's a decent chance that I sound completely stupid and embarrassing here because I fell for a multi-generational psyop used to consolidate political power in the hands of evil men, but think about how many millions of people there are who wouldn't even think to question this programming... Also, I don't plan on pursuing a relationship yet because I'm still deconstructing the mountain of lies that I was fed and building my self-confidence, but I think I can make it there eventually.)
If you are interested in unlearning paternalistic relationship structures I would recommend you read / listen to Dan Savage. He does a weekly sex and relationship columns since the 1990 and a podcast since the early 2000s so he has been doing this a long time so has a great backlog of material most of which is free. Especially since you are young and want some outsider perspective.
He talks often about alternative sexualities (queer, kink, etc.) and relationships structures (polyamory, open relationships, female led relationships, etc.) which might not be applicable to you. I know you mentioned that you are NOT into BDSM but understanding how common and acceptable doing something like that it makes what you are asking into context. Its the same tools around consent and communication about needs regardless of what you are doing. Listening and understanding the extreme level sexual acts will put your asks into perspective. Also hearing about the variety of ways organize their relationships and sex lives will really deprogram you from the single view of gender and sexuality you were brought up in.
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I'll give you some context: I (22M) was raised to believe that heterosexuality and its associated biological drives naturally resulted in paternalistic relationship structures where the man has absolute power and the woman is his willing subject. This dynamic was seen as natural and desirable as long as the man led in good faith. As such, men were active partners who showed initiative, while women were passive partners that responded to a man's advances. Male passivity and female initiative were viewed as unnatural desires.
My tendency to treat others with soft-spoken gentleness and careful consideration instead of stern authority and quick decisiveness made me originally believe that I was incompatible with women despite being attracted to them. I also viscerally hated the idea of subjugating or controlling others because it felt evil. I wanted to work with a partner, not above her.
Additionally, I had fantasies about women initiating affection, taking active roles during intimacy, and expressing a primal hunger to take the reins, fantasies which I believed were impossible to fulfill because my upbringing taught me that female initiative fundamentally did not exist anywhere except in niche fetishes (e.g. femdom), and male passivity would be a turn-off.
The dynamic I find appealing is one in which a partner and I are excited to pursue each other's pleasure by mutually initiating affection/intimacy and taking turns swapping between active and passive roles. My worry is that there aren't a lot of women who have that drive to pursue their partners in an assertive manner. What is that impression based on, you ask? Not much, except the "values" I was raised with and the trashy adult sites that I've looked at over the years.
It may be worth noting that I hate BDSM and power exchange dynamics where one partner is subject to another's command and absolute control. What I crave is a consensual, passionate, and attentive lead over someone's pleasure from a place of love, not domination, and for that initiative to change fluidly between partners.
Is this something with a substantial presence in the real world? How might I find partners who see intimacy in this way as opposed to the "lay down and take it" model? Usually the people on Lemmy have a lot of decently helpful and non-regressive takes, so I'm interested in the opinions here. Thanks!
(And yes, I know that there's a decent chance that I sound completely stupid and embarrassing here because I fell for a multi-generational psyop used to consolidate political power in the hands of evil men, but think about how many millions of people there are who wouldn't even think to question this programming... Also, I don't plan on pursuing a relationship yet because I'm still deconstructing the mountain of lies that I was fed and building my self-confidence, but I think I can make it there eventually.)
wrote last edited by [email protected]I grew up with the opposite expectations (that a grown woman's sexuality should be a take charge sort of desire) and it took me a ridiculously long time to come to terms with what I like in the bedroom.
But in terms of daily life? No. Wanting a partner, a true partner who doesn't expect you to make all the decisions is 100% normal, average, and healthy attitude. Wanting someone to initiate intimacy half the time is also not at all outrageous, nor do I think it unusual.
I always think that just because something turns you on, doesn't make it a good way to run your life and certainly not the world! Those are different questions entirely.
ETA one of the things that helped me understand my own desires was realizing that submissive != passive, not at all. Even within the subset of women who might prefer you to lead in bed, there are more who will be active participants who want to please you, and in the process, get off themselves, yes? I think that passivity comes from fear.
And even more people are "vanilla", as it's called, and exactly like your fantasy above, into sex without power play, fun and loving sex.
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I'll give you some context: I (22M) was raised to believe that heterosexuality and its associated biological drives naturally resulted in paternalistic relationship structures where the man has absolute power and the woman is his willing subject. This dynamic was seen as natural and desirable as long as the man led in good faith. As such, men were active partners who showed initiative, while women were passive partners that responded to a man's advances. Male passivity and female initiative were viewed as unnatural desires.
My tendency to treat others with soft-spoken gentleness and careful consideration instead of stern authority and quick decisiveness made me originally believe that I was incompatible with women despite being attracted to them. I also viscerally hated the idea of subjugating or controlling others because it felt evil. I wanted to work with a partner, not above her.
Additionally, I had fantasies about women initiating affection, taking active roles during intimacy, and expressing a primal hunger to take the reins, fantasies which I believed were impossible to fulfill because my upbringing taught me that female initiative fundamentally did not exist anywhere except in niche fetishes (e.g. femdom), and male passivity would be a turn-off.
The dynamic I find appealing is one in which a partner and I are excited to pursue each other's pleasure by mutually initiating affection/intimacy and taking turns swapping between active and passive roles. My worry is that there aren't a lot of women who have that drive to pursue their partners in an assertive manner. What is that impression based on, you ask? Not much, except the "values" I was raised with and the trashy adult sites that I've looked at over the years.
It may be worth noting that I hate BDSM and power exchange dynamics where one partner is subject to another's command and absolute control. What I crave is a consensual, passionate, and attentive lead over someone's pleasure from a place of love, not domination, and for that initiative to change fluidly between partners.
Is this something with a substantial presence in the real world? How might I find partners who see intimacy in this way as opposed to the "lay down and take it" model? Usually the people on Lemmy have a lot of decently helpful and non-regressive takes, so I'm interested in the opinions here. Thanks!
(And yes, I know that there's a decent chance that I sound completely stupid and embarrassing here because I fell for a multi-generational psyop used to consolidate political power in the hands of evil men, but think about how many millions of people there are who wouldn't even think to question this programming... Also, I don't plan on pursuing a relationship yet because I'm still deconstructing the mountain of lies that I was fed and building my self-confidence, but I think I can make it there eventually.)
wrote last edited by [email protected]It's not common, but it should be.
Most women are passive in the bedroom and really struggle not to be.
I think it's an extension of the social expectation for women to not take initiative and to instead be coveted.
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I'll give you some context: I (22M) was raised to believe that heterosexuality and its associated biological drives naturally resulted in paternalistic relationship structures where the man has absolute power and the woman is his willing subject. This dynamic was seen as natural and desirable as long as the man led in good faith. As such, men were active partners who showed initiative, while women were passive partners that responded to a man's advances. Male passivity and female initiative were viewed as unnatural desires.
My tendency to treat others with soft-spoken gentleness and careful consideration instead of stern authority and quick decisiveness made me originally believe that I was incompatible with women despite being attracted to them. I also viscerally hated the idea of subjugating or controlling others because it felt evil. I wanted to work with a partner, not above her.
Additionally, I had fantasies about women initiating affection, taking active roles during intimacy, and expressing a primal hunger to take the reins, fantasies which I believed were impossible to fulfill because my upbringing taught me that female initiative fundamentally did not exist anywhere except in niche fetishes (e.g. femdom), and male passivity would be a turn-off.
The dynamic I find appealing is one in which a partner and I are excited to pursue each other's pleasure by mutually initiating affection/intimacy and taking turns swapping between active and passive roles. My worry is that there aren't a lot of women who have that drive to pursue their partners in an assertive manner. What is that impression based on, you ask? Not much, except the "values" I was raised with and the trashy adult sites that I've looked at over the years.
It may be worth noting that I hate BDSM and power exchange dynamics where one partner is subject to another's command and absolute control. What I crave is a consensual, passionate, and attentive lead over someone's pleasure from a place of love, not domination, and for that initiative to change fluidly between partners.
Is this something with a substantial presence in the real world? How might I find partners who see intimacy in this way as opposed to the "lay down and take it" model? Usually the people on Lemmy have a lot of decently helpful and non-regressive takes, so I'm interested in the opinions here. Thanks!
(And yes, I know that there's a decent chance that I sound completely stupid and embarrassing here because I fell for a multi-generational psyop used to consolidate political power in the hands of evil men, but think about how many millions of people there are who wouldn't even think to question this programming... Also, I don't plan on pursuing a relationship yet because I'm still deconstructing the mountain of lies that I was fed and building my self-confidence, but I think I can make it there eventually.)
My soon to be wife 27f loves taking charge and it is so fucking sexy. We split it somewhat evenly and it might change during the act.
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You're right on the money. I'm pretty bright, but I make mistakes. Just yesterday I misunderstood somebody using the term "binary kids" (in reference to computer binary) here on Lemmy. I had to laugh about it. We're all human, and it's okay to make mistakes and learn from them.
As to spoiler tags, they're kind of tricky. I have to test them with a preview whenever I use them.
Here's an example of how to use them. If you copy/paste what I wrote below and remove the backslash at the start (which I'm only using to inactivate the tag, for demonstration purposes), you'll have a template for making your own spoiler.
/ ::: spoiler spoiler
spoiler text
:::So if you type:
/ ::: spoiler And the big reveal is
An annoying way to mark-up text
:::It becomes:
::: spoiler And the big reveal is
An annoying way to mark-up text
:::One last note - keep the line spacing the way it is. If you don't put the three parts on three different lines, the spoiler tag won't work.
wrote last edited by [email protected]::: spoiler spoiler
like so?
:::Thanks for taking the time! Both to use this knewfound knowledge as well as to reward a snafu with a gaff; I will share something mildly embarrassing.
::: spoiler spoiler.
I got dog piled the other week when I revealed that I thought New England was a US state. All the homies got their dunks in and I giggled along, albeit red in the face and clearly begrudgingly lol. I've always been bad with places and names. Oh well
:::Edit: not quite "like so", it seems. Let's see if I can figure this out..
Edit 2: finally got it lol
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Rofl his eyes uncovered!
I'm rooting for you. I had the good fortune of chancing on some sexually assertive woman early on, and it kind of led me accidentally to your own realization: that I want to be desired and subjected to a lustful gaze in addition to doing the same.
Although it sounds like some flavour of gentle bdsm would probably suit you. That community is also much better at communicating their specific desires, like you have shown here. So even if you aren't into dominance play, you are probably into some control swapping fantasies.
And by "fantasies" I don't mean some elaborate play-acted scenario, but specifically what you described, discussed ahead of time, and then played out for mutual pleasure.
Shaka, when the walls fell.
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If you are interested in unlearning paternalistic relationship structures I would recommend you read / listen to Dan Savage. He does a weekly sex and relationship columns since the 1990 and a podcast since the early 2000s so he has been doing this a long time so has a great backlog of material most of which is free. Especially since you are young and want some outsider perspective.
He talks often about alternative sexualities (queer, kink, etc.) and relationships structures (polyamory, open relationships, female led relationships, etc.) which might not be applicable to you. I know you mentioned that you are NOT into BDSM but understanding how common and acceptable doing something like that it makes what you are asking into context. Its the same tools around consent and communication about needs regardless of what you are doing. Listening and understanding the extreme level sexual acts will put your asks into perspective. Also hearing about the variety of ways organize their relationships and sex lives will really deprogram you from the single view of gender and sexuality you were brought up in.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Lol BDSM is not really common or acceptable. Nor should it be. It is amazing how far extremists have attempted to push the goalpost in this regard.
We already learned this in the 80's when psychologists were pushing primal therapy. Abusing yourself or others just leads to wanting to abuse more. A self-fulfilling prophecy if you will.
I am all for sex positivity, but pretending it is okay to hurt yourself or others because "consent" is just stupid. It is like the whole choking people during sex. Brain damage is the opposite of sexy.
Control in this regard is likewise the polar opposite of love and caring in a relationship. Society would be better off without these sick cunts pushing their ideology in movies and print.
Everything else you said is on point though
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Lol BDSM is not really common or acceptable. Nor should it be. It is amazing how far extremists have attempted to push the goalpost in this regard.
We already learned this in the 80's when psychologists were pushing primal therapy. Abusing yourself or others just leads to wanting to abuse more. A self-fulfilling prophecy if you will.
I am all for sex positivity, but pretending it is okay to hurt yourself or others because "consent" is just stupid. It is like the whole choking people during sex. Brain damage is the opposite of sexy.
Control in this regard is likewise the polar opposite of love and caring in a relationship. Society would be better off without these sick cunts pushing their ideology in movies and print.
Everything else you said is on point though
According to The Journal of Sex Research in 2017 :
Paraphilic sexual interests are defined as unusual or anomalous, but their actual occurrence in nonclinical samples is still unknown. This study looked at desire for and experience of paraphilic behaviors in a sample of adult men and women in the general population. A secondary goal was to compare the results of two survey modes—traditional landline telephone versus online. A total of 1,040 persons classified according to age, gender, education, ethnic background, religious beliefs, area of residency, and corresponding to the norm for the province of Quebec were interviewed. Nearly half of this sample expressed interest in at least one paraphilic category, and approximately one-third had had experience with such a practice at least once. Voyeurism, fetishism, frotteurism, and masochism interested both male and female respondents at levels above what is usually considered to be statistically unusual (15.9%). Interestingly, levels of interest in fetishism and masochism were not significantly different for men and women. Masochism was significantly linked with higher satisfaction with one's own sexual life. As expected, the online mode generated more acknowledgment of paraphilic interest than the telephone mode. These results call into question the current definition of normal (normophilic) versus anomalous (paraphilic) sexual behaviors.
(Emphasis mine)I would say that nearly half would be common enough. Ignore a common desires just leads repression, shame and for people to seek out these desires in more dangerous locations and situations usually without consent. Those who are honest about what they want get to do this with willing partners in specifically time constrained way. This is not controlling anyone outside those situations or pretending that God says all women are submissive to men.
I would also like mention that most kink and BDSM books by professions and those in the scene will discourage the use of choking by anyone in all situations. They will go into exquisite details about to safely flog a man safe and then say how choking is dangerous and shouldn't be done. So don't say that BDSM is choking because that is generally frowned upon (although this is still debated).
Thinking about BDSM (Sadism and Machosism specifically) as violence is missing the point and thinking about it the wrong context. There a many different ritualized and formalized pain rituals that we practice as a society. Something like a marathon, cross fit, sitting for tattoos are other modern example where people voluntarily go through pain for a set period of time for fun and to see if they can do it. These are all acceptable hobbies where pain is a large portion of why people do it. Not to mention that multitude of religious rituals where someone goes through something difficult or painful in a specific context. Its the sex negativity in the cultural that says if someone may get an erection or wet thinking about this pain where we draw the line.
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According to The Journal of Sex Research in 2017 :
Paraphilic sexual interests are defined as unusual or anomalous, but their actual occurrence in nonclinical samples is still unknown. This study looked at desire for and experience of paraphilic behaviors in a sample of adult men and women in the general population. A secondary goal was to compare the results of two survey modes—traditional landline telephone versus online. A total of 1,040 persons classified according to age, gender, education, ethnic background, religious beliefs, area of residency, and corresponding to the norm for the province of Quebec were interviewed. Nearly half of this sample expressed interest in at least one paraphilic category, and approximately one-third had had experience with such a practice at least once. Voyeurism, fetishism, frotteurism, and masochism interested both male and female respondents at levels above what is usually considered to be statistically unusual (15.9%). Interestingly, levels of interest in fetishism and masochism were not significantly different for men and women. Masochism was significantly linked with higher satisfaction with one's own sexual life. As expected, the online mode generated more acknowledgment of paraphilic interest than the telephone mode. These results call into question the current definition of normal (normophilic) versus anomalous (paraphilic) sexual behaviors.
(Emphasis mine)I would say that nearly half would be common enough. Ignore a common desires just leads repression, shame and for people to seek out these desires in more dangerous locations and situations usually without consent. Those who are honest about what they want get to do this with willing partners in specifically time constrained way. This is not controlling anyone outside those situations or pretending that God says all women are submissive to men.
I would also like mention that most kink and BDSM books by professions and those in the scene will discourage the use of choking by anyone in all situations. They will go into exquisite details about to safely flog a man safe and then say how choking is dangerous and shouldn't be done. So don't say that BDSM is choking because that is generally frowned upon (although this is still debated).
Thinking about BDSM (Sadism and Machosism specifically) as violence is missing the point and thinking about it the wrong context. There a many different ritualized and formalized pain rituals that we practice as a society. Something like a marathon, cross fit, sitting for tattoos are other modern example where people voluntarily go through pain for a set period of time for fun and to see if they can do it. These are all acceptable hobbies where pain is a large portion of why people do it. Not to mention that multitude of religious rituals where someone goes through something difficult or painful in a specific context. Its the sex negativity in the cultural that says if someone may get an erection or wet thinking about this pain where we draw the line.
Thank you for a clinically dry examination of BDSM. First, I am not talking about cosplayers and people who like to be spanked. Second, having met a lot of people into BDSM it is not healthy and detached acts like you describe.
What it is mostly is ritualized reenactment of trauma. Orgasm and sexual pleasure is also a extremely strong reinforcement. This leads to an unhealthy feedback loop.
I get it. Edge lords think everything is permissable under the sun. I will admit some curiosity on my part about different and unusual things. Curiosity quickly turned to disgust when I realized the reality of human nature.
Misogynists love power and control and are drawn to BDSM and the amount of unhealthy power dynamics like finding new partners to abuse is very real in the culture as are acts like choking, abuse, and rape.
I think clinically looking at this issue belays the reality and trauma most of its members participate it. Is there safe BDSM between consenting adults? Perhaps but there is much more psychological and physical abuse going on than they are willing to admit
So no, they don't get to be lumped into all the other sexual expression and get a free ride on the permissable train in my book. Having personally witnessed several people get real fucked up it is not cool.
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I'll give you some context: I (22M) was raised to believe that heterosexuality and its associated biological drives naturally resulted in paternalistic relationship structures where the man has absolute power and the woman is his willing subject. This dynamic was seen as natural and desirable as long as the man led in good faith. As such, men were active partners who showed initiative, while women were passive partners that responded to a man's advances. Male passivity and female initiative were viewed as unnatural desires.
My tendency to treat others with soft-spoken gentleness and careful consideration instead of stern authority and quick decisiveness made me originally believe that I was incompatible with women despite being attracted to them. I also viscerally hated the idea of subjugating or controlling others because it felt evil. I wanted to work with a partner, not above her.
Additionally, I had fantasies about women initiating affection, taking active roles during intimacy, and expressing a primal hunger to take the reins, fantasies which I believed were impossible to fulfill because my upbringing taught me that female initiative fundamentally did not exist anywhere except in niche fetishes (e.g. femdom), and male passivity would be a turn-off.
The dynamic I find appealing is one in which a partner and I are excited to pursue each other's pleasure by mutually initiating affection/intimacy and taking turns swapping between active and passive roles. My worry is that there aren't a lot of women who have that drive to pursue their partners in an assertive manner. What is that impression based on, you ask? Not much, except the "values" I was raised with and the trashy adult sites that I've looked at over the years.
It may be worth noting that I hate BDSM and power exchange dynamics where one partner is subject to another's command and absolute control. What I crave is a consensual, passionate, and attentive lead over someone's pleasure from a place of love, not domination, and for that initiative to change fluidly between partners.
Is this something with a substantial presence in the real world? How might I find partners who see intimacy in this way as opposed to the "lay down and take it" model? Usually the people on Lemmy have a lot of decently helpful and non-regressive takes, so I'm interested in the opinions here. Thanks!
(And yes, I know that there's a decent chance that I sound completely stupid and embarrassing here because I fell for a multi-generational psyop used to consolidate political power in the hands of evil men, but think about how many millions of people there are who wouldn't even think to question this programming... Also, I don't plan on pursuing a relationship yet because I'm still deconstructing the mountain of lies that I was fed and building my self-confidence, but I think I can make it there eventually.)
Yes, I've dated some. And not having to be assertive 100% of the time is the best, even outside of sex. Relationships should be a balanced thing, where both people take turns doing things. It's very refreshing, but doesn't seem to happen very often.
