Germany Turns to U.S. Playbook: Deportations Target Gaza War Protesters
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Denying Israel it's existence can be a sufficient reason.
No it's not what the hell? Or, well, if it then the EU is doomed because that's not how a democracy is supposed to function.
It is part of the German 'reason of State', as also mentioned in the article. Hence, denying Israel it's existence is a very very bad idea in Germany.
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especially people in Germany.
Why Germany especially? So far, every state of injustice declared legal whatever they wanted to do, be it Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Putin,.. or even the US, where you once could legally own people.
And of course there is always room for discussion whether things that are legal should be legal. Or illegal. But the chances of that having an effect on those four people here are rather slim.
I was born in a country which was under a Fascist dictatorship.
Not long after, there was a Revolution, the Fascist Regime was overthrown and the country became Democratic.
Still now, half a century later, people in my country of birth remain quite sensitive and easilly alarmed by practices of those in power which are similar to to the kind of things that those in power in the Fascist regime would do (for example, things like civil society surveillance).
I expect exactly the same from Germans, maybe just less of it since their Fascist days have been gone for longer and (judging by my own country), people's alertness to and rejection of things "like what they used to do before" seems to fall the further away from the dictatorship days we are.
Or are you telling me that Germans are special and different from other people and hence it's wrong to expect them to a tendency to rejection practices by those in power which are similar to those in of their very own past Fascist dictatorship?!
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They seems to be doing due process, so that invalidates the premise that it's like US where people are sent to El Salvador without any process.
Hence the article is garbage.A court striking down an illegal order after months, maybe years of court processes does change that the victims are put under immense pressure, blocked from pursuing an education or work while in Limbo, unable to travel and on top of that have high legal costs to upfront.
Meanwhile the perpetraitors on the government side face no repercussions even if the courts strike down the order.
It is an effective extrajudicial punishment and the victims can loose years of their life.
Also due process in Germany evaporates into a barely visible steam when it comes to police violence, where even brutal attacks by police officers rarely yield a sentence that would prevent them from continuing working as police.
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Yes, i have:
Under German migration law, authorities don’t need a criminal conviction to issue a deportation order
The only event that tied the four cases together was the allegation that the protesters participated in the university occupation, which involved property damage, and alleged obstruction of an arrest
Some, but not all, of the allegations would correspond to criminal charges in Germany; almost none of them have been brought before a criminal court.
Two, for example, are accused of calling a police officer “fascist” — insulting an officer, which is a crime. Three are accused of demonstrating with groups chanting slogans like “From the river to the sea, Palestine Will be Free” — which was outlawed last year in Germany — and “free Palestine.” Authorities also claim all four shouted antisemitic or anti-Israel slogans, though none are specified.
Two are accused of grabbing an officers’ or another protesters’ arm in an attempt to stop arrests at the train station sit-in.
None of this sounds to me like 4 people who simply took part peacefully in a protest.
The slogan "From the river to the Sea" was "outlawed" by a decree from the interior ministry designating it as a symbol of Hamas. Think of this act like Trump banning DEI. There is no legal consensus on it and various courts have upheld the slogan to be a legitimate expression und the constitutionally protected freedom of speech in Germany.
This is executive order authoritarian style action and entirely different from democratic proceedings, where the parliament passes a law in accordance with the constitution, which then is interpreted by courts and finally enforced by the executive.
Here the legislative and judiciary are cut out.
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The "making of amends", the historical processing of what the hell happened with honest effort, didn't happen in the 50's, it started in the 70's during and after the student protests. The processing of these crimes is an almost impossible task, its execution was and is far from perfect, its intended lessons apparantly start to wane, but I'll not slam the efforts done by so many people.
I also wonder if you ever visited Eastern Europe if you think it's bad in Germany.
True, I never lived in Eastern Europe, only in Northern, Western and Southern Europe.
Are you telling me that Eastern Europeans commonly support groups mass murdering children along racial lines if the ethnicity of the members of the group doing the mass murder is deemed more important than other ethnicities?
Because that's some pretty extreme Racism (as race-based discrimination goes, it's pretty hard to beat actually sending weapons to child mass murders and justifying it with one's "unwavering support" of their ethnicity), whilst the most extreme Racism I'm aware of in EE is in ex-Jugoslavia between mainly Serbs, Croats and ethnic Albanians which was also a Genocide but didn't leave tens of thousands of dead children, bombed out hospitals, murdered journalists and a list of babies murdered just in the first 6 months which is 17 pages long, not even close.
Even the stuff that happened following the break up of Jugoslavia did not get anywere as what Germany supports in Gaza very overtly because of the ethnicity of the Genociders and I'm not aware of any present day EE nation like Germany supporting outright Genocide openly because of the ethnicity of the genociders (though from what I've heard there's a lot of Racism in Hungary, though they fall short of supporting mass murdering of children if done by those of the "right" race).
In this Germany is almost in a class of its own (though not quite: it's there together with Brexiter Britain and Trump's America, hardly stellar company).
PS: Re-read how I named the Roma People, "Roma people" and how my use of the word "Gypsies" is very clearly framed as a clarification for those who do not know the proper name of that people. I expected that the way I wrote would make it pretty clear that the proper way to refere to them was "Roma people", but guess I was wrong in that.
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True, I never lived in Eastern Europe, only in Northern, Western and Southern Europe.
Are you telling me that Eastern Europeans commonly support groups mass murdering children along racial lines if the ethnicity of the members of the group doing the mass murder is deemed more important than other ethnicities?
Because that's some pretty extreme Racism (as race-based discrimination goes, it's pretty hard to beat actually sending weapons to child mass murders and justifying it with one's "unwavering support" of their ethnicity), whilst the most extreme Racism I'm aware of in EE is in ex-Jugoslavia between mainly Serbs, Croats and ethnic Albanians which was also a Genocide but didn't leave tens of thousands of dead children, bombed out hospitals, murdered journalists and a list of babies murdered just in the first 6 months which is 17 pages long, not even close.
Even the stuff that happened following the break up of Jugoslavia did not get anywere as what Germany supports in Gaza very overtly because of the ethnicity of the Genociders and I'm not aware of any present day EE nation like Germany supporting outright Genocide openly because of the ethnicity of the genociders (though from what I've heard there's a lot of Racism in Hungary, though they fall short of supporting mass murdering of children if done by those of the "right" race).
In this Germany is almost in a class of its own (though not quite: it's there together with Brexiter Britain and Trump's America, hardly stellar company).
PS: Re-read how I named the Roma People, "Roma people" and how my use of the word "Gypsies" is very clearly framed as a clarification for those who do not know the proper name of that people. I expected that the way I wrote would make it pretty clear that the proper way to refere to them was "Roma people", but guess I was wrong in that.
No, I’m saying there are parts of Europe that are just as casually racist as East German hinterlands. I wouldn’t equate the government’s stance on the war to the general sentiments in the public. I think it’s just not that high of a priority for most people, kinda understandable considering all the shit that‘s going on, nationally and internationally. The October 7th attack was the first time for years that this war got extensive media coverage.
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I was born in a country which was under a Fascist dictatorship.
Not long after, there was a Revolution, the Fascist Regime was overthrown and the country became Democratic.
Still now, half a century later, people in my country of birth remain quite sensitive and easilly alarmed by practices of those in power which are similar to to the kind of things that those in power in the Fascist regime would do (for example, things like civil society surveillance).
I expect exactly the same from Germans, maybe just less of it since their Fascist days have been gone for longer and (judging by my own country), people's alertness to and rejection of things "like what they used to do before" seems to fall the further away from the dictatorship days we are.
Or are you telling me that Germans are special and different from other people and hence it's wrong to expect them to a tendency to rejection practices by those in power which are similar to those in of their very own past Fascist dictatorship?!
Still now, half a century later, people in my country of birth remain quite sensitive and easilly alarmed by practices of those in power which are similar to the kind of things that those in power in the Fascist regime would do (for example, things like civil society surveillance).
I expect exactly the same from Germans, maybe just less of it since their Fascist days have been gone for longer
That's something we also thought for a long time, that we are kind of bulletproof to something like this ever happening again.
The problem/main difference to your country: yes, it's been longer ago, but also, we had reunification, where two very different places became one and defacto a large population living in a socialist dictatorship for decades had to integrate into fully-running country of the former 'class enemy'. This rift still isn't fully closed and it is something you won't find in most other countries. This lead to a smaller degree of cohesion and a larger portion of people having difficulties to identify with our national architecture.
Furthermore, the people nowadays are way more influenced by the events of the German Partition and its aftermath than the Third Reich. And even there, those that themselves experienced mass surveillance and living in a state of injustice now seem to have no problems expanding surveillance and again oppressing the enemies, as long as it's not them. In the end, people, irrespective of their nationality, can have a very short memory.
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No, I’m saying there are parts of Europe that are just as casually racist as East German hinterlands. I wouldn’t equate the government’s stance on the war to the general sentiments in the public. I think it’s just not that high of a priority for most people, kinda understandable considering all the shit that‘s going on, nationally and internationally. The October 7th attack was the first time for years that this war got extensive media coverage.
Oh, casual Racism is a plague all over the World and, worse, some of the countries which supposedly have gone beyond it, really just changed the lists of "good"/"deserving" races and "bad"/"undeserving" races and called the discriminatory behaviour anchored in those new lists "positive", as if treating people differently depending on their race is a good thing as long as it's only for certain races but a bad thing for others.
Racism is always a coin with two faces - there are always some who are presumed to, due to their ethnicity, be relatively better people and thus treated in a relatively better way, and others who due to their ethnicity are presumed to be relatively worst people and treated in a relatively worst way - and just because one goes around empasysing the "positive" side of treating some better due to their race doesn't make the thing any less Prejudiced, Discriminatory and unjust.
The boundary between Racism and not-Racism is not defined by which are the races for which you will treat individuals better and which for which you treat individuals worst, or even on the focusing on positive treatment for some races (the modern spin on Racism) rather than negative treatment for other races (the Fascist spin on Racism), it's defined by judging and treating or not people differently depending on their race.
To eliminate Racism you need to eliminate the way of thing thinking that is the foundation of Racism: that the character of people, their worth and the treatment they deserved depends on their ethnicity.
"Positive" Discrimination doesn't eliminate Racism, it just moves the unfairs, Racist treatment to favour different ethnicities - a different list of ubermenschen and untermenschen rathers than just treating all as equally menschen.
Whilst you (rightly!) point out and criticize the casual racism all over the place done with the traditional (Fascist) spin on racism, you seem to be totally oblivious to the Racism with the modern neoliberal spin which is just as unjust, prejudiced and discriminatory (hence just as Racist) as practiced in Germany, where it is systemic and even weaved into the structures of power (exactly as shown in this news story, with people being deported without trial for being against it), and the powerful activelly practicing discrimination on the basis of ethnicity and suppressing criticism of it with laws that bypass the Courts, is a far, FAR worse situation than merely the powerless being casually racist.
The takeover of Israel by a nakedly ethno-Fascist regime which has started a full-blown Genocide along ethnic lines of proportions and cruelty exceeded only by the Holocaust, is what shined a harsh light on the reality that the whole business of presuming things and treating people based on their ethnicity is wrong even when you spin it as "positive", and Germany was so far down into Racism with that modern neoliberal spin that the country, unlike many other countries in Europe which also previously supported Israel, has been unable to pull itself out of it when it de facto transformed into support of a very extreme form of Fascist-style Racism.
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Still now, half a century later, people in my country of birth remain quite sensitive and easilly alarmed by practices of those in power which are similar to the kind of things that those in power in the Fascist regime would do (for example, things like civil society surveillance).
I expect exactly the same from Germans, maybe just less of it since their Fascist days have been gone for longer
That's something we also thought for a long time, that we are kind of bulletproof to something like this ever happening again.
The problem/main difference to your country: yes, it's been longer ago, but also, we had reunification, where two very different places became one and defacto a large population living in a socialist dictatorship for decades had to integrate into fully-running country of the former 'class enemy'. This rift still isn't fully closed and it is something you won't find in most other countries. This lead to a smaller degree of cohesion and a larger portion of people having difficulties to identify with our national architecture.
Furthermore, the people nowadays are way more influenced by the events of the German Partition and its aftermath than the Third Reich. And even there, those that themselves experienced mass surveillance and living in a state of injustice now seem to have no problems expanding surveillance and again oppressing the enemies, as long as it's not them. In the end, people, irrespective of their nationality, can have a very short memory.
That makes sense.
I stand corrected.
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who havent been committed of any crimes is very legally dubious.
TBF: as the article states, under German law it is not. Whether that is a good idea can surely be debated, but it is legal.
from the article:
Buhlmann explicitly warned that the legal basis for revoking the three EU citizens’ freedom of movement was insufficient — and that deporting them would be unlawful.
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dont tell u what has allegedly been chanted
we can guess, yes. but the fact that the claim has not been backed by any criminal proceedings, and they dont even want to say what exactly theyre accused of chanting, is a ridiculous basis for deportation if u ask me.
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It is part of the German 'reason of State', as also mentioned in the article. Hence, denying Israel it's existence is a very very bad idea in Germany.
staatsräson, as the article also states, is not a meaningful legal category
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The entire world seems to be turning dystopian
And as usual, the US dials everything up to 11.
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from the article:
Buhlmann explicitly warned that the legal basis for revoking the three EU citizens’ freedom of movement was insufficient — and that deporting them would be unlawful.
Sorry, I read your initial sentence as in 'deporting someone who hasn't been convicted of a crime'.
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Oh, casual Racism is a plague all over the World and, worse, some of the countries which supposedly have gone beyond it, really just changed the lists of "good"/"deserving" races and "bad"/"undeserving" races and called the discriminatory behaviour anchored in those new lists "positive", as if treating people differently depending on their race is a good thing as long as it's only for certain races but a bad thing for others.
Racism is always a coin with two faces - there are always some who are presumed to, due to their ethnicity, be relatively better people and thus treated in a relatively better way, and others who due to their ethnicity are presumed to be relatively worst people and treated in a relatively worst way - and just because one goes around empasysing the "positive" side of treating some better due to their race doesn't make the thing any less Prejudiced, Discriminatory and unjust.
The boundary between Racism and not-Racism is not defined by which are the races for which you will treat individuals better and which for which you treat individuals worst, or even on the focusing on positive treatment for some races (the modern spin on Racism) rather than negative treatment for other races (the Fascist spin on Racism), it's defined by judging and treating or not people differently depending on their race.
To eliminate Racism you need to eliminate the way of thing thinking that is the foundation of Racism: that the character of people, their worth and the treatment they deserved depends on their ethnicity.
"Positive" Discrimination doesn't eliminate Racism, it just moves the unfairs, Racist treatment to favour different ethnicities - a different list of ubermenschen and untermenschen rathers than just treating all as equally menschen.
Whilst you (rightly!) point out and criticize the casual racism all over the place done with the traditional (Fascist) spin on racism, you seem to be totally oblivious to the Racism with the modern neoliberal spin which is just as unjust, prejudiced and discriminatory (hence just as Racist) as practiced in Germany, where it is systemic and even weaved into the structures of power (exactly as shown in this news story, with people being deported without trial for being against it), and the powerful activelly practicing discrimination on the basis of ethnicity and suppressing criticism of it with laws that bypass the Courts, is a far, FAR worse situation than merely the powerless being casually racist.
The takeover of Israel by a nakedly ethno-Fascist regime which has started a full-blown Genocide along ethnic lines of proportions and cruelty exceeded only by the Holocaust, is what shined a harsh light on the reality that the whole business of presuming things and treating people based on their ethnicity is wrong even when you spin it as "positive", and Germany was so far down into Racism with that modern neoliberal spin that the country, unlike many other countries in Europe which also previously supported Israel, has been unable to pull itself out of it when it de facto transformed into support of a very extreme form of Fascist-style Racism.
Thanks for the lesson, but to be clear: I'm not oblivious to positive racism and don't support the authorities' actions from the news article. I just think it's a combination of multiple factors why support for Israel is as high as in Germany, and I think none of those is an instrinsically hightened disposition for racism.
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staatsräson, as the article also states, is not a meaningful legal category
That's what the courts will determine now, I guess.
And while Staatsräson itself might not be a meaningful legal category, chanting for the elimination of Israel's existence can already be punishable within the existing StGB, even without the currently discussed additions to it to explicitly punish calls for the elimination of nations.
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If this thread is at all representative of how left-leaning Europeans think, then... uh... y'all are fucked. The proto-fascism here can not result in anything else other than Trump/Orban clones taking power all over Europe. I'm not trying to attack you, but You the People need to do something about this before it's too late.
People should enjoy the last years of democracy and freedom of movement in the EU, because all this is about to end soon.
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Thanks for the lesson, but to be clear: I'm not oblivious to positive racism and don't support the authorities' actions from the news article. I just think it's a combination of multiple factors why support for Israel is as high as in Germany, and I think none of those is an instrinsically hightened disposition for racism.
I agree with that: I don't think any "people" has an intrinsically heightened disposition for racism.
In fact, if I thought otherwise I would be quite the hypocrite as that would be pure and simple racist prejudice.
What I do think is that the Press and Political environment in Germany for the past decades have promoted race-based thinking thus increasing the acceptance of racism and even a certain blindness to it because the dominant forms were "benevolent" racism. This is how Germany ended up were it is now: by the active normalizing of a dysfunctional behavior as being "benevolent" rather than due to predisposition of those living there for such things.
You see a lot of that too in places like the US were one party is Racist in the traditional sense and the other spins their Racism in the modern sense (but when it comes to, for example, Muslims, they're both traditional racists).
The really alarming thing is that rather than stop and re-evaluate that posture in light of how that ended up with the German Government very overtly supported the most extreme Genocide of this century (so far
) overtly due to the race of the genociders, the German authorities have instead doubled down with authoritarian measures (IMHO, bypassing the Courts to expel dissidents is pretty authoritarian for a supposedly Democratic nation).IMHO, such climate of race-based thinking and normalization of racial prejudice and discrimination (even if spinned as "positive") is also fertile ground for the growth of traditional racists such as the AfD in Germany and the MAGAs in America - the moral and ethical distance between "those people should be supported because of their race" and the traditional racists' "we should be supported because of our race" is much, much smaller than the distance between "people's race should not mater for how they are seen or treated" and "we should be supported because of our race" - "if it's OK to do it for them then it's OK to do it for us" is quite a tiny mental step.
I don't actually think that Germany is worse in this than for example the US, it's just that I had a far, far better opinion of Germany than I had of the US previously and the deep disappointment of figuring out the dark nature of racial policies in German Politics makes it hit me harder than what's happening in the US.
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The slogan "From the river to the Sea" was "outlawed" by a decree from the interior ministry designating it as a symbol of Hamas. Think of this act like Trump banning DEI. There is no legal consensus on it and various courts have upheld the slogan to be a legitimate expression und the constitutionally protected freedom of speech in Germany.
This is executive order authoritarian style action and entirely different from democratic proceedings, where the parliament passes a law in accordance with the constitution, which then is interpreted by courts and finally enforced by the executive.
Here the legislative and judiciary are cut out.
Hey Saleh, you're modding /c/nahost and therefore know about the FU attack, which is the real issue here. This is not about someone shouting "From the river to the sea", this is about a violent group of Hamas supporters causing 100.000€ of property damage. There is no country in the world that wouldn't kick out foreigners doing that.
https://www.fu-berlin.de/presse/informationen/fup/2024/fup_24_206-versuchte-besetzung/index.html
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Hey Saleh, you're modding /c/nahost and therefore know about the FU attack, which is the real issue here. This is not about someone shouting "From the river to the sea", this is about a violent group of Hamas supporters causing 100.000€ of property damage. There is no country in the world that wouldn't kick out foreigners doing that.
https://www.fu-berlin.de/presse/informationen/fup/2024/fup_24_206-versuchte-besetzung/index.html
You know that occupations of universities have a long history in Germany and are both reveered in hindsight and usually tolerated at their time, like the previous occupation of HU in 2017 for Andrej Holm. https://www.hu-berlin.de/de/pr/nachrichten/archiv/nr1701/nr_170131_00
Back then nobody was threatened with deportation.
This is not normal, also not for Germany. Again there is no specific criminal convictions of the people threatened now.
