Germany Turns to U.S. Playbook: Deportations Target Gaza War Protesters
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The entire world seems to be turning dystopian
And as usual, the US dials everything up to 11.
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from the article:
Buhlmann explicitly warned that the legal basis for revoking the three EU citizens’ freedom of movement was insufficient — and that deporting them would be unlawful.
Sorry, I read your initial sentence as in 'deporting someone who hasn't been convicted of a crime'.
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Oh, casual Racism is a plague all over the World and, worse, some of the countries which supposedly have gone beyond it, really just changed the lists of "good"/"deserving" races and "bad"/"undeserving" races and called the discriminatory behaviour anchored in those new lists "positive", as if treating people differently depending on their race is a good thing as long as it's only for certain races but a bad thing for others.
Racism is always a coin with two faces - there are always some who are presumed to, due to their ethnicity, be relatively better people and thus treated in a relatively better way, and others who due to their ethnicity are presumed to be relatively worst people and treated in a relatively worst way - and just because one goes around empasysing the "positive" side of treating some better due to their race doesn't make the thing any less Prejudiced, Discriminatory and unjust.
The boundary between Racism and not-Racism is not defined by which are the races for which you will treat individuals better and which for which you treat individuals worst, or even on the focusing on positive treatment for some races (the modern spin on Racism) rather than negative treatment for other races (the Fascist spin on Racism), it's defined by judging and treating or not people differently depending on their race.
To eliminate Racism you need to eliminate the way of thing thinking that is the foundation of Racism: that the character of people, their worth and the treatment they deserved depends on their ethnicity.
"Positive" Discrimination doesn't eliminate Racism, it just moves the unfairs, Racist treatment to favour different ethnicities - a different list of ubermenschen and untermenschen rathers than just treating all as equally menschen.
Whilst you (rightly!) point out and criticize the casual racism all over the place done with the traditional (Fascist) spin on racism, you seem to be totally oblivious to the Racism with the modern neoliberal spin which is just as unjust, prejudiced and discriminatory (hence just as Racist) as practiced in Germany, where it is systemic and even weaved into the structures of power (exactly as shown in this news story, with people being deported without trial for being against it), and the powerful activelly practicing discrimination on the basis of ethnicity and suppressing criticism of it with laws that bypass the Courts, is a far, FAR worse situation than merely the powerless being casually racist.
The takeover of Israel by a nakedly ethno-Fascist regime which has started a full-blown Genocide along ethnic lines of proportions and cruelty exceeded only by the Holocaust, is what shined a harsh light on the reality that the whole business of presuming things and treating people based on their ethnicity is wrong even when you spin it as "positive", and Germany was so far down into Racism with that modern neoliberal spin that the country, unlike many other countries in Europe which also previously supported Israel, has been unable to pull itself out of it when it de facto transformed into support of a very extreme form of Fascist-style Racism.
Thanks for the lesson, but to be clear: I'm not oblivious to positive racism and don't support the authorities' actions from the news article. I just think it's a combination of multiple factors why support for Israel is as high as in Germany, and I think none of those is an instrinsically hightened disposition for racism.
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staatsräson, as the article also states, is not a meaningful legal category
That's what the courts will determine now, I guess.
And while Staatsräson itself might not be a meaningful legal category, chanting for the elimination of Israel's existence can already be punishable within the existing StGB, even without the currently discussed additions to it to explicitly punish calls for the elimination of nations.
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If this thread is at all representative of how left-leaning Europeans think, then... uh... y'all are fucked. The proto-fascism here can not result in anything else other than Trump/Orban clones taking power all over Europe. I'm not trying to attack you, but You the People need to do something about this before it's too late.
People should enjoy the last years of democracy and freedom of movement in the EU, because all this is about to end soon.
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Thanks for the lesson, but to be clear: I'm not oblivious to positive racism and don't support the authorities' actions from the news article. I just think it's a combination of multiple factors why support for Israel is as high as in Germany, and I think none of those is an instrinsically hightened disposition for racism.
I agree with that: I don't think any "people" has an intrinsically heightened disposition for racism.
In fact, if I thought otherwise I would be quite the hypocrite as that would be pure and simple racist prejudice.
What I do think is that the Press and Political environment in Germany for the past decades have promoted race-based thinking thus increasing the acceptance of racism and even a certain blindness to it because the dominant forms were "benevolent" racism. This is how Germany ended up were it is now: by the active normalizing of a dysfunctional behavior as being "benevolent" rather than due to predisposition of those living there for such things.
You see a lot of that too in places like the US were one party is Racist in the traditional sense and the other spins their Racism in the modern sense (but when it comes to, for example, Muslims, they're both traditional racists).
The really alarming thing is that rather than stop and re-evaluate that posture in light of how that ended up with the German Government very overtly supported the most extreme Genocide of this century (so far
) overtly due to the race of the genociders, the German authorities have instead doubled down with authoritarian measures (IMHO, bypassing the Courts to expel dissidents is pretty authoritarian for a supposedly Democratic nation).IMHO, such climate of race-based thinking and normalization of racial prejudice and discrimination (even if spinned as "positive") is also fertile ground for the growth of traditional racists such as the AfD in Germany and the MAGAs in America - the moral and ethical distance between "those people should be supported because of their race" and the traditional racists' "we should be supported because of our race" is much, much smaller than the distance between "people's race should not mater for how they are seen or treated" and "we should be supported because of our race" - "if it's OK to do it for them then it's OK to do it for us" is quite a tiny mental step.
I don't actually think that Germany is worse in this than for example the US, it's just that I had a far, far better opinion of Germany than I had of the US previously and the deep disappointment of figuring out the dark nature of racial policies in German Politics makes it hit me harder than what's happening in the US.
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The slogan "From the river to the Sea" was "outlawed" by a decree from the interior ministry designating it as a symbol of Hamas. Think of this act like Trump banning DEI. There is no legal consensus on it and various courts have upheld the slogan to be a legitimate expression und the constitutionally protected freedom of speech in Germany.
This is executive order authoritarian style action and entirely different from democratic proceedings, where the parliament passes a law in accordance with the constitution, which then is interpreted by courts and finally enforced by the executive.
Here the legislative and judiciary are cut out.
Hey Saleh, you're modding /c/nahost and therefore know about the FU attack, which is the real issue here. This is not about someone shouting "From the river to the sea", this is about a violent group of Hamas supporters causing 100.000€ of property damage. There is no country in the world that wouldn't kick out foreigners doing that.
https://www.fu-berlin.de/presse/informationen/fup/2024/fup_24_206-versuchte-besetzung/index.html
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Hey Saleh, you're modding /c/nahost and therefore know about the FU attack, which is the real issue here. This is not about someone shouting "From the river to the sea", this is about a violent group of Hamas supporters causing 100.000€ of property damage. There is no country in the world that wouldn't kick out foreigners doing that.
https://www.fu-berlin.de/presse/informationen/fup/2024/fup_24_206-versuchte-besetzung/index.html
You know that occupations of universities have a long history in Germany and are both reveered in hindsight and usually tolerated at their time, like the previous occupation of HU in 2017 for Andrej Holm. https://www.hu-berlin.de/de/pr/nachrichten/archiv/nr1701/nr_170131_00
Back then nobody was threatened with deportation.
This is not normal, also not for Germany. Again there is no specific criminal convictions of the people threatened now.
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Other people present at the same protest are accused of doing these things. Not these people. Scroll up to the article summary I posted
** None of the four has been convicted of any crimes.**
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Going to need another source than intercept to believe this story. They have a history of sensationalization or leaving important details out.
Al Jazeera and FT are reporting on it too. But what’s your issue with the Intercept?
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Under German migration law, authorities don’t need a criminal conviction to issue a deportation order
Okay clearly you are not even interested whether the students were guilty. The essense of your argument condenses to
"Yes but unlike in America, in Germany this is legal!"
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I agree with that: I don't think any "people" has an intrinsically heightened disposition for racism.
In fact, if I thought otherwise I would be quite the hypocrite as that would be pure and simple racist prejudice.
What I do think is that the Press and Political environment in Germany for the past decades have promoted race-based thinking thus increasing the acceptance of racism and even a certain blindness to it because the dominant forms were "benevolent" racism. This is how Germany ended up were it is now: by the active normalizing of a dysfunctional behavior as being "benevolent" rather than due to predisposition of those living there for such things.
You see a lot of that too in places like the US were one party is Racist in the traditional sense and the other spins their Racism in the modern sense (but when it comes to, for example, Muslims, they're both traditional racists).
The really alarming thing is that rather than stop and re-evaluate that posture in light of how that ended up with the German Government very overtly supported the most extreme Genocide of this century (so far
) overtly due to the race of the genociders, the German authorities have instead doubled down with authoritarian measures (IMHO, bypassing the Courts to expel dissidents is pretty authoritarian for a supposedly Democratic nation).IMHO, such climate of race-based thinking and normalization of racial prejudice and discrimination (even if spinned as "positive") is also fertile ground for the growth of traditional racists such as the AfD in Germany and the MAGAs in America - the moral and ethical distance between "those people should be supported because of their race" and the traditional racists' "we should be supported because of our race" is much, much smaller than the distance between "people's race should not mater for how they are seen or treated" and "we should be supported because of our race" - "if it's OK to do it for them then it's OK to do it for us" is quite a tiny mental step.
I don't actually think that Germany is worse in this than for example the US, it's just that I had a far, far better opinion of Germany than I had of the US previously and the deep disappointment of figuring out the dark nature of racial policies in German Politics makes it hit me harder than what's happening in the US.
Germany‘s neo fascists use support for Israel as a fig leaf, „look we are no Nazis, we support the Jews this time!“. Same reason why Weidel dug up that ultra stupid theory that Hitler was actually a lefty socialist. Conveniently, said support also hurts people they actually really hate. A crooked sense of historical responsibility was the perfect circumstance.
I‘m otherwise happy to read up on those ideological foundations you mentioned that Germany couldn’t get rid of in post colonial Europe.
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The article is borderline. Because it suggests that the people would ONLY be deported because they protested. But, as it says in the article, they SHOULD be deported because they have committed criminal offences. And criminal offences are not just murders or rapes.
And yes, this is exactly what has been demanded for months: Foreign offenders should be deported more quickly and less ruthlessly. Especially if they come from safe countries. Here, for example, Ireland. The fact that these offences were committed in connection with protests doesn't provide any protection, and I find it extremely sensational to even begin to compare this with what is happening in the USA.
“As a trans person, the idea of going back to the U.S. right now feels really scary.”
Right, "safe country".
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Going to need another source than intercept to believe this story. They have a history of sensationalization or leaving important details out.
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The Intercept is not a trustworthy source for news. What they do is quite simply activism.
activism is not the bad word that far-right groups have indoctrinated people to believe it is.
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You know that occupations of universities have a long history in Germany and are both reveered in hindsight and usually tolerated at their time, like the previous occupation of HU in 2017 for Andrej Holm. https://www.hu-berlin.de/de/pr/nachrichten/archiv/nr1701/nr_170131_00
Back then nobody was threatened with deportation.
This is not normal, also not for Germany. Again there is no specific criminal convictions of the people threatened now.
I think the issue is not a peaceful occupation. Those are happening quite frequently, but the massive destruction they did. I participated in some occupations during my studies and that went without any damage. People did occupy a lecture hall or some university building, but left it without doing six-figure damages or threatening employees. That was quite a different thing here and therefore is handled differently.
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I think the issue is not a peaceful occupation. Those are happening quite frequently, but the massive destruction they did. I participated in some occupations during my studies and that went without any damage. People did occupy a lecture hall or some university building, but left it without doing six-figure damages or threatening employees. That was quite a different thing here and therefore is handled differently.
There were previous peaceful protest camps on the campus grounds, which are public space. Those got violently evicted.
Then months later people escalated to more destructive occupations as a response to the initial violent escalation by the University and Police.
Somebody pointed out that in Berlin the third University TU, did not face such escalations, as the University Director chose to talk with people rather than have them beaten up by police. Students even came to defend her, when the racist and mysogynist government of Berlin pushed for her to be fired for having liked a post that criticized Israels conduct from a legally sound perspective.
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There were previous peaceful protest camps on the campus grounds, which are public space. Those got violently evicted.
Then months later people escalated to more destructive occupations as a response to the initial violent escalation by the University and Police.
Somebody pointed out that in Berlin the third University TU, did not face such escalations, as the University Director chose to talk with people rather than have them beaten up by police. Students even came to defend her, when the racist and mysogynist government of Berlin pushed for her to be fired for having liked a post that criticized Israels conduct from a legally sound perspective.
It still is their choice that they willingly started that violence. And let's be honest: If you want to protest against the war or even maybe try to find a way to find a way for peace in the middle east, violent destruction of a german university building is not the way
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There were previous peaceful protest camps on the campus grounds, which are public space. Those got violently evicted.
Then months later people escalated to more destructive occupations as a response to the initial violent escalation by the University and Police.
Somebody pointed out that in Berlin the third University TU, did not face such escalations, as the University Director chose to talk with people rather than have them beaten up by police. Students even came to defend her, when the racist and mysogynist government of Berlin pushed for her to be fired for having liked a post that criticized Israels conduct from a legally sound perspective.
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The mayor of Berlin, Kai Wegner, has demanded that police should release the names of minors, who were suspected of criminal activity around new years eve 2023, so that people could determine by their names, whether they are "real Germans" as in German by blood, or whether they are "merely" German citizens.
As for mysogony:
https://novaramedia.com/2024/11/28/berlin-police-brutalise-women-at-anti-violence-demonstration/
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/5/25/punched-choked-kicked-german-police-crack-down-on-student-protests
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2024/08/25/pro-palestinian-marchers-tell-of-arbitrary-violence-by-berlin-police/
https://hyphenonline.com/2024/10/04/ava-moayeri-germany-pro-palestine-protest-free-speech-police-arrest-violence/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5Vr8rBtWOc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Txy6MnoEDE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exRIsj73QUQ
https://gewerkschaftliche-linke-berlin.de/erklaerung-zur-polizeigewalt-am-8-maerz-auf-der-demonstration-until-total-liberation-in-berlin/All of this violence is protected and supported by the government of Berlin.
