Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia

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Honestly what else is there to do? These people aren’t exactly going to change their minds, and letting them display hate in the name of free speech is only going to help them mobilize and elect more trumps in the world.

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I’ll take…. “Things You’ll Never See Happen in America” Alex.

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You’re playing into the paradox of tolerance. Don’t do that.

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Yeah, but most of the people I imagine pulling a Nazi salute "as a joke like Elon (were so hilarious haha look at those [insertracialslur])" might be deterred from pulling their shitty "joke" if it actually means prison time automatically. It doesn't matter if it's just like a week. Try explaining to an employer why you didn't attend the important meeting you had because you sat in jail for a week for a fascist "joke".

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It's kinda weird to sort of start rolling back to where some type of conservatism is actually a good thing. I don't want to identify as a conservative, but I definitely want to conserve institutions of justice and whatnot and not have them corrupted by right-wing crypto cucks.

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I know you're joking, but we do not want retroactive laws

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The point is to jail people you disagree with by whatever means palatable to the general public. You can't just run around jailing people, you have to have a reason.

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I sat on a jury recently and a large part of the case had to do with prison culture. It's so incredibly sad how accurate this is.

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Was there another Holocaust or something I don't know about during the time in this article?

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Why stop at jail time? Why not execute them?

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I mean free speech is a deeply contradictory concept, which i largely support, however, people having the "right" to harm others is not a human right but a right of domination, which I am actively and deeply set against.

It does create an opportunity for a little irony, which I can't pass up.

But part of my criticism is not just "Nazis exist in prison" but "carcerial justice is just as fascistic as anything we associate with fascism" which never gets even though about let alone discussed anywhere but the fringes of the prison abolition movement.

And things like prisons and police, the existence of many kinds of crime, particularly property crimes, need to be considered historically contingent, so that no matter how much we want to just delete all prisons they do serve as a solution to contradictions that arise within our society. So that the struggle to abolish carcerial punishment has to be simultaneously replaced with something better. Which is just and worth fighting for.

Getting rid of heil Hitler hand gestures in public might prevent the public proliferation of "signs" of fascism, the actual causes of it are institutional and function in cooperation with systems of institutional racism, Etc., and until those tendencies are abolished, and that is the worst expressions of class domination within capitalism, fascism will always be a problem to contend with.

In other words, we have fascism because we have prisons. Or rather, the underlying logic of fasciam is just the underlying logic that justifies carcerial justice, taken to its natural conclusions.

So its not just irony, its like a double irony

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Well I say it elsewhere, but we need to really start to rethink carcerial justice as a solution to social problems. It doesn't help, it just compounds the contradictions that lead to problems like crime, fascism in the first place.

I understand we can't just snap our fingers to make it go away. But The first step is discussion.

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My dad was a prison guard, I've thought about some of these dynamics a lot over the years.

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“carcerial justice is just as fascistic as anything we associate with fascism” which never gets even thought about let alone discussed anywher

Yeah because it's childish strawman. Of course it's not the same to have to spend a day in a drunk tank because you lost control and were kicking off mirrors from cars as it is to be marched into a gaschamber.

That's false equivalency.

Also, if you had ever picked up a single philosophy book, you'd know how much positive and negative freedoms and the right of the government to impose those on others is actually discussed. It's like >95% of what philosophy has been going on about for the 1000 years.

Getting rid of heil Hitler hand gestures in public might prevent the public proliferation of “signs” of fascism, the actual causes of it are institutional and function in cooperation with systems of institutional racism,

Not really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue

In other words, we have fascism because we have prisons.

Fucking roflmao, literally. Well I didn't drop to the floor but I did roll around giggling a bit on my chair. I would suggest reading "Leviathan" from Hobbes, but since I know you won't, here's a video sort of summarising Hobbes' thoughts, by a professional philosopher called Alain de Botton and his channel "School of Life" POLITICAL THEORY - Thomas Hobbes

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Yeah its bad, but jail time for it?

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Not quite yet - the US is currently in the Night of Long Knives phase of allowing Nazis to come into power, so perhaps soon.

Why, did the first one not count?

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That's basically a tax on not being rich enough to be a nazi, which... well.

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It's nothing to do with paradox of tolerance to think a year's mandatory jail time for a year is pretty ridiculous for any "hate-related offenses".

I'm against in general of just throwing people into the slammer and hoping that fixes the issues. Punishment should fit the crime and some dipshit doing some Nazi salute isn't worth a year in goddamn prison.

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Do you think the same about any traffic violation or all fines in general? We should throw people in the jail for a year, mnimum, because otherwise it's just a tax on not being rich enough for the crime?

Come on now. I'm all for having tougher sentences on the high end for hate related offenses, but a mandatory minimum being year in jail for any such offense, even some dipshit doing a Nazi salute and nothing is else, is just too much. It's like said, dipshit behaviour but hardly worth a year in jail. And it probably won't solve the issue anyway. Just putting people in jail seldom does imo. Yanks have already tried that.

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Alain de Botton omg and you thought I was funny.

Anyway you completely missed my point wrt false equivalence since both things are true. Its called nuance, dingus. I believe in the continual progress of human spirit, similar to Hegel's formulation of freedom, but I'm a materialist and Marxist, not right wing liberal like Hobbes. Because believe it or not society has progressed since the 1680s when the ascendent English bourgeoisie seized control of the British empire and needed rational justification for their rule -- which Thomas Hobbes Leviathan is. Its a piece of political philosophy, and certainly worth studying. I haven't read it and might not, but I know others that have. I get the gist I don't need Alain de Buttman's watered down baby philosophy for online babies, please and thank you.

I've read thousands of pages of philosophy. You've watched thousands of hours of vaush and destiny. We are not the same. Come back when you're capable of making a point or having an adult discussion. I'll be here.

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Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia