Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia

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It's kinda weird to sort of start rolling back to where some type of conservatism is actually a good thing. I don't want to identify as a conservative, but I definitely want to conserve institutions of justice and whatnot and not have them corrupted by right-wing crypto cucks.

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I know you're joking, but we do not want retroactive laws

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The point is to jail people you disagree with by whatever means palatable to the general public. You can't just run around jailing people, you have to have a reason.

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I sat on a jury recently and a large part of the case had to do with prison culture. It's so incredibly sad how accurate this is.

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Was there another Holocaust or something I don't know about during the time in this article?

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Why stop at jail time? Why not execute them?

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I mean free speech is a deeply contradictory concept, which i largely support, however, people having the "right" to harm others is not a human right but a right of domination, which I am actively and deeply set against.

It does create an opportunity for a little irony, which I can't pass up.

But part of my criticism is not just "Nazis exist in prison" but "carcerial justice is just as fascistic as anything we associate with fascism" which never gets even though about let alone discussed anywhere but the fringes of the prison abolition movement.

And things like prisons and police, the existence of many kinds of crime, particularly property crimes, need to be considered historically contingent, so that no matter how much we want to just delete all prisons they do serve as a solution to contradictions that arise within our society. So that the struggle to abolish carcerial punishment has to be simultaneously replaced with something better. Which is just and worth fighting for.

Getting rid of heil Hitler hand gestures in public might prevent the public proliferation of "signs" of fascism, the actual causes of it are institutional and function in cooperation with systems of institutional racism, Etc., and until those tendencies are abolished, and that is the worst expressions of class domination within capitalism, fascism will always be a problem to contend with.

In other words, we have fascism because we have prisons. Or rather, the underlying logic of fasciam is just the underlying logic that justifies carcerial justice, taken to its natural conclusions.

So its not just irony, its like a double irony

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Well I say it elsewhere, but we need to really start to rethink carcerial justice as a solution to social problems. It doesn't help, it just compounds the contradictions that lead to problems like crime, fascism in the first place.

I understand we can't just snap our fingers to make it go away. But The first step is discussion.

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My dad was a prison guard, I've thought about some of these dynamics a lot over the years.

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“carcerial justice is just as fascistic as anything we associate with fascism” which never gets even thought about let alone discussed anywher

Yeah because it's childish strawman. Of course it's not the same to have to spend a day in a drunk tank because you lost control and were kicking off mirrors from cars as it is to be marched into a gaschamber.

That's false equivalency.

Also, if you had ever picked up a single philosophy book, you'd know how much positive and negative freedoms and the right of the government to impose those on others is actually discussed. It's like >95% of what philosophy has been going on about for the 1000 years.

Getting rid of heil Hitler hand gestures in public might prevent the public proliferation of “signs” of fascism, the actual causes of it are institutional and function in cooperation with systems of institutional racism,

Not really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue

In other words, we have fascism because we have prisons.

Fucking roflmao, literally. Well I didn't drop to the floor but I did roll around giggling a bit on my chair. I would suggest reading "Leviathan" from Hobbes, but since I know you won't, here's a video sort of summarising Hobbes' thoughts, by a professional philosopher called Alain de Botton and his channel "School of Life" POLITICAL THEORY - Thomas Hobbes

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Yeah its bad, but jail time for it?

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Not quite yet - the US is currently in the Night of Long Knives phase of allowing Nazis to come into power, so perhaps soon.

Why, did the first one not count?

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That's basically a tax on not being rich enough to be a nazi, which... well.

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It's nothing to do with paradox of tolerance to think a year's mandatory jail time for a year is pretty ridiculous for any "hate-related offenses".

I'm against in general of just throwing people into the slammer and hoping that fixes the issues. Punishment should fit the crime and some dipshit doing some Nazi salute isn't worth a year in goddamn prison.

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Do you think the same about any traffic violation or all fines in general? We should throw people in the jail for a year, mnimum, because otherwise it's just a tax on not being rich enough for the crime?

Come on now. I'm all for having tougher sentences on the high end for hate related offenses, but a mandatory minimum being year in jail for any such offense, even some dipshit doing a Nazi salute and nothing is else, is just too much. It's like said, dipshit behaviour but hardly worth a year in jail. And it probably won't solve the issue anyway. Just putting people in jail seldom does imo. Yanks have already tried that.

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Alain de Botton omg and you thought I was funny.

Anyway you completely missed my point wrt false equivalence since both things are true. Its called nuance, dingus. I believe in the continual progress of human spirit, similar to Hegel's formulation of freedom, but I'm a materialist and Marxist, not right wing liberal like Hobbes. Because believe it or not society has progressed since the 1680s when the ascendent English bourgeoisie seized control of the British empire and needed rational justification for their rule -- which Thomas Hobbes Leviathan is. Its a piece of political philosophy, and certainly worth studying. I haven't read it and might not, but I know others that have. I get the gist I don't need Alain de Buttman's watered down baby philosophy for online babies, please and thank you.

I've read thousands of pages of philosophy. You've watched thousands of hours of vaush and destiny. We are not the same. Come back when you're capable of making a point or having an adult discussion. I'll be here.

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I don't know we do it, but I think addressing the root causes as to why people are drawn to hate groups or hateful beliefs would be better. Eliminating the symptom doesn't solve the problem.

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Oh you're laughing at it because he's so familiar to you because it's the most "hardcore" philosophy you've ever engaged with? Yeah, I assumed as much.

That's why I assumed you wouldn't read "Leviathan" and from all your writing it's clear you never have previously. Or even listened to a summary. Perhaps had those playing in the background, pretending like you've been listening to them.

The way you can't distinguish a thought from the philosopher who brought it up shows that you larp as being read instead of being read.

I don’t need Alain de Buttman’s watered down baby philosophy for online babies, please and thank you.

Oh you most certainly do. It would definitely improve your skill on larping as a philosopher if you had the ability to pay any attention.

I’ve read thousands of pages of philosophy.

Thanks. That got rid of some phlegm. THOUSANDS of pages you say. Wow. That must be like... at least a half a dozen books.

We'll continue the conversation when you understand how asinine your earlier garbage is. If you weren't an egoistical teenager who's all about what other's perceive for them to have read and done and actually put import on understanding the things people say to you, you would at least skim what the Leviathan is about so you'd know what point I was making. But the fact you're incapable of even understanding that means that I'm simply not interested in anything you have to say as you have zero intellectual curiosity. That sort of youthful egoism is fine, as long as it's driven by actual intellect.

Yours isn't.

Your previous comment. It looks a bit like how ridiculous it looks to you to now look illustrations of what people in the late 19th century thought the 21st century would look like. Firemen with flappy wings and whatnot. It's utterly ridiculous because you know that would be the absolute worst way to go about flying. Either the wings would have to be absolutely massive or go really fast and still they'd be much worse than most other options we have for personal flying we can already achieve, like the jetpacks. The reason I'm saying this is that is what it looks like to me when reading your "arguments". I can see how someone ignorant of political theory might formulate a naive theory like that, but the theory itself is utterly ridiculous and wouldn't work because of facts you do not seem to know.

If you have even the tiniest bit of intellectual curiosity, you'll look up what the Leviathan is about (while remembering to distinguish between an author and an idea) and then you'll see why your earlier assertions are laughably naive.

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Why are you so rude and mean? I actually have an interest in philosophy, which you apparently do too? But I don't use it to like make people feel stupid. I'm nobody. I'm just like a guy with a job and a family that reads hard books. I'm proud of what little intellectual accomplishment I've made, and I encourage others to study. But dude I don't fucking care about reading Leviathan! I'll read books by people who have read it, but not Alain de Botton because he is a turd, but despite a good measure of intellectual curiosity, more than most in my life at least, it isn't something that will come up for me. I'm glad you got so much out of it. made it into your whole identity maybe, but it hasn't come up for me in the way that will lead me to read it, at least not yet! All I can say if on my very long reading list, it isn't on there and I don't see that changing this year.

This book is so important and crucial to your point yet you can't point to a single line or paragraph to support your non existent arguments, which amount to "ur dum". Why not demonstrate how great a book it is by quoting a passage that is relevant? L

I've read more than 6 philosophy books in the last 6 months. You are strawmanning me, because I'm not who you have delusionally convinced yourself that I am. Its completely unnecessary and not at all about the topic at hand.

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It's actually really easy to not be a nazi.

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Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia