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  3. What do you believe that most people of your political creed don't?

What do you believe that most people of your political creed don't?

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asklemmy
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  • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG [email protected]

    If there's no free trade, you don't try to undercut the prices of your neighbor's factory. You just produce your thing, and that's it.

    azzu@lemm.eeA This user is from outside of this forum
    azzu@lemm.eeA This user is from outside of this forum
    [email protected]
    wrote on last edited by
    #59

    Wait, which borders are you talking about? The borders of each individuals property? So everyone should be self-sufficient, with no trade happening at all?

    gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG 1 Reply Last reply
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    • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG [email protected]

      I'm a strict leftist, that means, i believe that humans (in fact, all life) are valuable. Yes, you have to say that in these times. Lots of politicians these days seem to disagree with even that.

      As a direct consequence, i advocate for UBI (universal basic income). Because the people need to live off something, and it is getting harder by the year to be successful through your own labor. (As numerous articles describe, - i won't link them here, because that would be out of scope - hashtag "working poor").

      However, i think the borders must be closed. That affects both goods and migration. If the borders are closed, people stop competing with one another. Just a reminder: "compete" comes from Latin and basically means "fight". People are fighing against one another, and i think that makes a society sick. If the borders close, economy slows down considerably, and people stop competing.

      ultragigagigantic@lemmy.mlU This user is from outside of this forum
      ultragigagigantic@lemmy.mlU This user is from outside of this forum
      [email protected]
      wrote on last edited by
      #60

      UBI sounds like keeping capitalism on life support after it attempted suicide (again).

      I'd give a functional UBI system 4 generations before it's useless much like the minimum wage.

      gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG 1 Reply Last reply
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      • U [email protected]

        I know a few people who are police, one being a very close friend who is now retired from being a cop. Not a single one of them is a bad person or cop. The stories I hear from them make me wonder why they would do it, and the universal answer is usually to help people. The best part is that of the six or so people I know counting my friends, they are all quitting because people treat them so badly juat for doing thier job, and they will be replaced with cops who show no compassion. I myself have many stories of cops being understanding and caring and, in turn, being very lenient. When I talk to people with the acab mentality, the police never go easy. It's odd how just treat people how you want to be treated works.

        darkdemize@sh.itjust.worksD This user is from outside of this forum
        darkdemize@sh.itjust.worksD This user is from outside of this forum
        [email protected]
        wrote on last edited by
        #61

        I'm asking this in good faith, but are you/your police friends white? Historically speaking, minorities have been profiled, been more likely to be arrested, and been subject to harsher sentences than white people have. This is no small part to the reason that the ACAB sentiment runs much deeper in minority populations. And I say this as a white man with a mother and brother that work for the police.

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        • 0 [email protected]

          The acab movement has caused more harm than it has salved. Furthering the ideas that there are no good cops means that nobody good will become a cop in the future, furthering the issue

          lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.mlL This user is from outside of this forum
          lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.mlL This user is from outside of this forum
          [email protected]
          wrote on last edited by
          #62

          The issue is structural, there are no "good cops" in the same way there are no "good pimps" or "good slave owners."

          There were some slave owners who were kind to their slaves, taught them to read, allowed them to have some free time and make a small amount of money.

          That doesn't mean that what they were doing was morally acceptable. They still were buying and selling human beings like property.

          Policing, especially in the USA is rotten to the core. There are absolutely some cops who are kind people, who become police officers out of a naive belief that they can do good for society as a whole in that profession.

          But those people don't usually last long. They either leave after seeing the ugly underbelly, or they become corrupted by the system. The police will always act in the interest of the rich and powerful, or else they get fired. If they are told to break up a protests, they will always comply. If they are told to block a corporate skyscraper so that protesters cannot get into it to stage a sit-in, they will do it, even as ultra wealthy oligarchs stream safely past them to conduct horrifically corrupt dealings that hurt and kill millions of people across the world.

          The cop's job is also to go around trying to bust people for crimes. If a cop comes up to you out of the blue and starts up a conversation, 99% of the time they are fishing for information, trying to sus something out. They aren't just trying to be friendly, they are doing their job. In the US at least, the cops are allowed to lie to you in an investigation in order to try to get you to admit guilt. They are allowed and trained to do it, to use all kinds of trickery to manipulate you into a confession, or to get Intel that helps them.

          In addition, the examples people frequently cite as good things the cops do would be better done by non-cops. First aid? Suicide intervention? Disaster relief? Theft deterrence? Wellness checks? Those are all things that would be better done by non-cops if we funded and grew those kinds of organizations instead of further militarizing the police.

          ACAB has never meant that all cops are evil people, it means that no matter how good of a person a cop is, they will always be empowering a corrupt and evil system.

          Why don't we see the same sentiment about paramedics, firefighters, and heck, even soldiers? Because the systems that those folks are a part of don't have the same corrupting effect. Even soldiers are generally looked on much more favorably than cops, even though politically and socially, there is a large amount of overlap. Part of this is propaganda, but another factor is the standards soldiers are held to in the US. They are expected to carry themselves extremely well, and can be severely punished, even jailed for misconduct.

          As a personal anecdote, I grew up in both worlds. My dad and several members of my family were both in the military and were cops. I was around both cultures a ton. I've had many bad encounters with police officers over the years, and that's with me knowing all the classic, "always keep your hands visible and comply" stuff that my dad and his cop friends told me.

          I've never had a single negative encounter with an on-duty soldier. They've always been extremely respectful and grounded. Like I said, just an anecdote, but interesting to think about. If cops could be fired or even jailed for relatively minor infractions, even have their lives destroyed like soldiers who are dishonorably discharged, ACAB would probably never have became a thing.

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          • J [email protected]

            Just wanted to prove that political diversity ain't dead. Remember, don't downvote for disagreements.

            T This user is from outside of this forum
            T This user is from outside of this forum
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            wrote on last edited by
            #63

            This question is difficult to correctly answer, as anyone can define their own political boundaries. They can be wrong about those boundaries and they can define many different ones that are all valid. Is my "political creed" to be a communist? Which subset might that mean? Am I friendly with certain subsets despite disagreeing with them (yes) and if so would they potentially count as the majority? Am I a (de)famed Western leftist or part of a worldwide effort in terms of having a less popular view of a subject?

            I would say that among the people with whom I have the most general agreement, my least popular opinion is the potential for imperial core workers to become radicalized and organized for the left. A very large amount of organized resources is constantly poured into efforts to prevent this from happening, including those that reinforce settler, white supremacist, and chauvinist attitudes that permeate our cultures. That means that our struggle is very challenging right now but also means that if those flows are ever cut off or undermined, there will be immense opportunity and we have to be ready to channel the inevitable accompaniment to the conditions (austerity) that got us to that place away from neoliberal fascistic movements.

            Basically, there is a common pathway in understanding that goes from hope for revolution from within the imperial core (no successful precedents) to attempts to understand this and explain why it's least likely to happen there. This can lead to a self-defeating cynicism towards all imperial core organizing or to curb vision. But I think it is our duty to continually reformulate as needed to discovery organizable enclaves, to grow with current and upcoming conditions. We owe that to each other.

            J 1 Reply Last reply
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            • azzu@lemm.eeA [email protected]

              Wait, which borders are you talking about? The borders of each individuals property? So everyone should be self-sufficient, with no trade happening at all?

              gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG This user is from outside of this forum
              gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG This user is from outside of this forum
              [email protected]
              wrote on last edited by
              #64

              no i meant that in a metaphorical sense. no free trade means that there's no "getting ahead" (because you can't flood a foreign market with your cheap products), so people put in less effort.

              azzu@lemm.eeA 1 Reply Last reply
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              • azzu@lemm.eeA [email protected]

                So what is the alternative to "downvoting" someone's opinion? You can't support it, obviously, that would be stupid. I just see no other way than "downvoting", saying "well, I see where you're coming from, but your opinion is wrong and doesn't achieve what you want".

                R This user is from outside of this forum
                R This user is from outside of this forum
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                wrote on last edited by
                #65

                Your example is about as spicy as lukewarm water. The responses I got involved the words "bootlicker", "nazi", "fascist", and "chud", various expletives, called into question my mental health and respect for minorities, and listed several examples of why holding those views made me the scum of the earth.

                azzu@lemm.eeA J 2 Replies Last reply
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                • ultragigagigantic@lemmy.mlU [email protected]

                  UBI sounds like keeping capitalism on life support after it attempted suicide (again).

                  I'd give a functional UBI system 4 generations before it's useless much like the minimum wage.

                  gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG This user is from outside of this forum
                  gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG This user is from outside of this forum
                  [email protected]
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #66

                  I'd give the revolution in the US zero % chance of success, which one is better?

                  cowbee@lemmy.mlC 1 Reply Last reply
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                  • J [email protected]

                    Just wanted to prove that political diversity ain't dead. Remember, don't downvote for disagreements.

                    deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD This user is from outside of this forum
                    deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD This user is from outside of this forum
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                    wrote on last edited by
                    #67

                    I don't seem to have a political creed anymore.

                    I believe in honesty and being honourable.

                    breadcat@sh.itjust.worksB J 2 Replies Last reply
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                    • D [email protected]

                      That is a controversial opinion here.

                      (And I agree with it. I don't know what the way is, but I hope it can be found)

                      seaqueue@lemmy.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                      seaqueue@lemmy.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
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                      wrote on last edited by
                      #68

                      When you're coming from a position of extreme privilege and you're either a bit stupid or lack empathy or general social awareness being treated equally with "lesser people" (like women, brown people or people from particular religious backgrounds) can seem an awful lot like you're being discriminated against.

                      J 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • J [email protected]

                        Just wanted to prove that political diversity ain't dead. Remember, don't downvote for disagreements.

                        U This user is from outside of this forum
                        U This user is from outside of this forum
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                        wrote on last edited by
                        #69

                        The fact that you have to ask means you'd judge people on skin color. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh because if the answer is yes, they're white, you'd attribute it to that but not bother looking any further. They are mostly white, but my friends wife isn't. I know my fair share of people who have had extremely bad interactions, too, and they are white. My brother was pulled out of his car at gun point for making an illegal turn. Do dwb happen sadly, yes, but those are not as frequent as you'd like to believe.

                        J 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • R [email protected]

                          Your example is about as spicy as lukewarm water. The responses I got involved the words "bootlicker", "nazi", "fascist", and "chud", various expletives, called into question my mental health and respect for minorities, and listed several examples of why holding those views made me the scum of the earth.

                          azzu@lemm.eeA This user is from outside of this forum
                          azzu@lemm.eeA This user is from outside of this forum
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                          wrote on last edited by
                          #70

                          Well yeah, but that doesn't invalidate the "tolerance is a social contract" mentality, it invalidates baseless accusations and extreme hostility. What I said is the actual intended result of the "don't tolerate intolerance" mentality. If that is fine with you, then you don't actually have any issue with the mentality itself, but with the implementation.

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                          • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG [email protected]

                            no i meant that in a metaphorical sense. no free trade means that there's no "getting ahead" (because you can't flood a foreign market with your cheap products), so people put in less effort.

                            azzu@lemm.eeA This user is from outside of this forum
                            azzu@lemm.eeA This user is from outside of this forum
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                            wrote on last edited by
                            #71

                            Yes but which free trade are you talking about? Because if you close borders so trade only happens within one country, then there will still be competition within the country. That's why I ask which borders you mean exactly...

                            gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deG 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • darkdemize@sh.itjust.worksD [email protected]

                              Trump and MAGA are regressive. They are hell-bent on taking this country back to the first half of the 20th century, in all the worst possible ways.

                              rocketpoweredgorilla@lemmy.caR This user is from outside of this forum
                              rocketpoweredgorilla@lemmy.caR This user is from outside of this forum
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                              wrote on last edited by
                              #72

                              Most of them don't even know what they want. They're told what to think and simply can't process anything on their own. Argue with one and you'll be hard pressed to find an original thought, just regurgitations of what they've been told by fox news.

                              comfy@lemmy.mlC S 2 Replies Last reply
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                              • breadcat@sh.itjust.worksB [email protected]

                                the anti-work movement has been a blight on communism

                                ajmaxwell@lemmy.worldA This user is from outside of this forum
                                ajmaxwell@lemmy.worldA This user is from outside of this forum
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                                wrote on last edited by
                                #73

                                I feel like it has the wrong name. But it is a baby step for many toward anticapitalist ideals.

                                Work is good, and can be beneficial. Working a job you hate because if you don't you'd starve is awful and should be done away with.

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                                • J [email protected]

                                  Just wanted to prove that political diversity ain't dead. Remember, don't downvote for disagreements.

                                  M This user is from outside of this forum
                                  M This user is from outside of this forum
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                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #74

                                  That the dense city movement, of building up, instead of out, is ultimately ceding a huge proportion of our lives (our dwelling sizes and layouts, their materiality and designs, how the public space between them looks and feels) to soulless corporations trying to extract every dollar.

                                  When we build out, people tend to have more say in the design and build of their own home, often being able to fully build it however they want, and they certainly have far more freedom to change it after the fact, rather than having it be chosen by a condo developer. In addition, all the space between the homes is controlled by the municipalities, and you end up with pleasant streets and sidewalks, whereas condos just have the tiniest dingiest never ending hallways with no soul.

                                  And condos are the instance where you actually at least kind of own your home. In the case of many cities that densify, you end up tearing down or converting relatively sense single family homes into multi apartment units where you again put a landlord in charge, sucking as many resources out of the residents as possible.

                                  Yes, I understand all the grander environmental reasons about why we should densify, however, the act of doing so without changing our home ownership and development systems to be coop or publicly owned, is part of what is increasing the corporatization of housing.

                                  O D H 3 Replies Last reply
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                                  • J [email protected]

                                    Just wanted to prove that political diversity ain't dead. Remember, don't downvote for disagreements.

                                    U This user is from outside of this forum
                                    U This user is from outside of this forum
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                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #75

                                    My only issue with that is taking from regular people to fund it. Tax solely corporations, many of them view increased profits at any cost as the only objective, which means they have more to spare. If you take it from the people who take all the risk by investing their own money, I don't see that as fair. If I work hard to make a living, invest what I can to improve my life and future that shouldn't be touched by any tax. Where I'm from, we have capital gains tax of something assured, like 55%+. I don't see how that is fair. If I go bust, I don't get a hand out or do over, but if I succeed, I have to fork over more than half...

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                                    • R [email protected]

                                      I'm generally leaning towards progressive or left-wing ideas, but with a few exceptions.

                                      • While I support the goals of diversity, equity, and inclusion, I believe that DEI initiatives are highly susceptible to exploitation because of the widespread and largely uncritical public support of the concept (or even just the abbreviation) with little regard to the implementation; and by tokenizing ethnicity, gender, and identity, it is at risk of doing what it was meant to prevent.
                                      • I believe that law enforcement is a deeply flawed system to say the least, but ultimately necessary because the alternatives are lawlessness or ineffectual systems. This is of course colored by my European perspective where guns and driver's licenses aren't handed out like candy.
                                      • The "tolerance is a social contract" mentality is hurting society. A person who experiences rejection and exclusion from progressive communities for voicing "intolerant" opinions will not be interested in reconciliation, and will inevitably fall in with a more radical group where they experience acceptance and belonging. Integration should be sought whenever reasonable.

                                      The last point is especially important to me. I grew up in a fairly conservative environment, and it took me a lot of conscious effort to un-learn my prejudices and learn acceptance. But whenever I get downvoted and shouted down for voicing an opinion that aligns with conservatives, or simply isn't "leftist" enough, it makes me want to distance myself from "leftist" ideology and adds to my disillusionment.

                                      ultragigagigantic@lemmy.mlU This user is from outside of this forum
                                      ultragigagigantic@lemmy.mlU This user is from outside of this forum
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                                      wrote on last edited by [email protected]
                                      #76

                                      There is an option in your settings so you don't see upvotes or downvotes.

                                      Lemmy (AFAIK) doesn't even show you your total upvotes (karma... whatever it's called) by default either. None of these imaginary points matter.

                                      (Lemmy is rad)

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                                      • T [email protected]

                                        The first point is a fairly common opinion among communists, who understand "DEI" to be a liberal cooption of liberationist language and thought that tokenizes identities and reworks the concepts in favor of exploiters (and was doomed to be shed the moment it was less profitable for exploiters).

                                        It may be beneficial to consider the second point with some nuance that is often neglected in order to agitate. Again with communists, you will find many that hate their country's cops but acknowledge the necessity in a post-revolutionary framework, either in their own visions for their own revolution or in defending the actions taken by their comrades that rapidly discover the need for some form of organized enforcement. One way to think about this is that the police are an arm of the state, and who that state serves via its structures and nature changes how they operate. In OECD countries, cops primarily serve capital. They protect profits based on shop owner complaints, shut down capital-inconvenient demonstrations, etc, and spend little time helping average people. In many capitalist countries, cops are underpaid and openly corrupt, so they do the same things while being more obvious bribes. In countries run by socialists, cops of course still do many cop things, but you will find them spending more of their time on other tasks, there are fewer per capita, and the job of being a cop in capitalist counties has been split into many different jobs that don't involve having a gun or otherwise carrying out the worst actions taken by cops. So, in short, it is entirely coherent to hate your local cops as an arm of capital that will beat you for protesting while not condemning the mere existence of cops in other countries while also understanding that we want to create a society free of them.

                                        For the third point, it really depends on what you mean by accepting. Socialists need to educate people where they are, warts and all, but you also cannot be taillist and morph your work into accepting reactionary positions. That defeats the entire point of rejecting reactionary positions. Patience in explaining is valuable, tacit agreement with racism/xenophobia/sexism/homophobia/transphobia/etc is counterproductive. In addition, getting dunked on can and does create results. Despite growing up conservative and getting dunked on by those to your left, you now think of yourself as non-conservative. Are you sure none of those dunks ever led you to question your positions?

                                        R This user is from outside of this forum
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                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #77

                                        I can't address the entire reply since it's 3 in the morning, but I just want to point out something.

                                        I'm not a communist. I'm not a socialist, or a Marxist-Leninist. I don't consider myself to be a "leftist" (which I see as an overly broad term), and I'm sure as hell not a centrist. If my views are inconsistent, it's because I don't follow any single doctrine.

                                        T 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • D [email protected]

                                          It would be proportional, but instead of your representation being based on your address it's based on a choice you make.

                                          Think of it this way; you're a computer programmer who works from home in Hayseed, Iowa. Everyone lese in your town is a farmer or working in farm related business. Your voice will never be heard by the Congressperson.

                                          Under the new system, your address would be irrelevant. You'd be voting for a computer person who knows exactly what you need.

                                          That's one example. You might want to be part of the 'teachers' or 'gun owners.'

                                          The original idea comes from a novel, "Double Star" by Robert Heinlein. He doesn't provide an actual constitution, but I do think it's a nice idea to play around with.

                                          J This user is from outside of this forum
                                          J This user is from outside of this forum
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                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #78

                                          But the reason it's based on address is because the person you vote for has power over that location. In this system, what would that person have power over?

                                          D 1 Reply Last reply
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