makeover
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this is far beyond gender.
Males are styled to be boring, girls to be pretty.
the fact that a man can get married, work, and buried in the same suit is depressing as fuck.
men need to feel pretty too.
I'm a cis male and I have so little interest in my looks that the only looks related thing that I even think about, is my weight, mainly because I don't want to be unhealthy. If I'm "overweight" or "obese" and healthy, I couldn't give a fuck about being whatever weight I am. I just know that being overweight is frequently a sign of being unhealthy, or can cause health complications like T2 diabetes.
I typically wear black 90% of the time or more, because I don't have to think about matching colors or standing out or being stylish or whatever.
For fashion, all black, uninteresting clothes, are generally neither hated, nor loved by people. It's very meh, bland, uninteresting, not notable, and generally very meh.
I'm good with that. I may never be "en vogue" or whatever the fuck, but I'll never have someone looking at me like "you're wearing that shirt with those pants?"
They're all black. I'm wearing black jeans with a black T-shirt. -
Are you talking the difference between something like cross dressing and being trans? I'll dive into it as I've had this on my mind recently.
My understanding is the main focus of being trans is the change in gender identity. Biological sex doesn't really come into it, it's all about social roles, expectations etc. A man can wear woman's clothing and still be a man after all.
I can't really speak for people's experiences when it comes to them not physically matching their views on their gender. It's a deeply individual thing I imagine. Physical changes, hormones etc are not required to be trans, though they can be a part of it.
The point that caught me for a bit was my views on gender equality. I was of the opinion that gender/sex stereotypes shouldn't really define people, but that clashed with the idea that people sometimes desire the stereotypes that go along with gender.
It's a tricky thing to want both true equality but also respect differences in gender, because in some ways they aren't always compatible. But we aren't the result of our ideals so much as we are the result of our upbringings, and gender is a large part of our identity. It's baked into us, girls want pretty dresses, boys want power tools, and you will be treated different based on what you present as, regardless of how bullshit that might be.
The way I see it, it's only fair to say fuck it, you can be whichever gender you want. I still think stereotypes are something we should move away from ultimately, but that's a long road that I'll never live to see the end of, and if someone can be happier today, I don't see why that's a problem.
wrote last edited by [email protected]That's what I was also thinking and can understand. What I don't understand is to really physically alter and damage your body to match your physiology to your desired gender. Is this really necessary? In the end it's only a superficial change as well and factually and genetically you will still be of a certain biological sex.
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It's because gender presentation is only one component of it, and the other is biochemistry.
Trans people experience dysphoria partly because their bodies do not produce the amount of sex hormones (progestogens we, androgens, and estrogens) at a ratio that matches what their brain needs. It's like putting gas into a diesel engine. Their brain expects their body to develop in a certain way, and it does not.
How can this be differentiated of body dysphoria disorders where one perceives their own body as overly flawed or distorted without it being like that? Serious question. I am genuinely concerned about this.
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That's interesting, why do you think in video games you want to play a pretty character that can wear gorgeous outfits?
wrote last edited by [email protected]Sexual attraction does play a role - I'm not aroused by playing a game, but attractiveness is a type of beauty and I enjoy looking at beauty. I also think that women are just prettier than men even in an entirely non-sexual way, but I wonder how much of that is simply a reflection of being taught that women are the beautiful gender rather than an innate aesthetic preference. That segues into an interest in traditionally feminine social roles. I admit that I'm a bit envious of women, not because I consider myself a woman or want to become a woman, but because women get to be beautiful, delicate, desirable, etc. and men generally don't.
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That's what I was also thinking and can understand. What I don't understand is to really physically alter and damage your body to match your physiology to your desired gender. Is this really necessary? In the end it's only a superficial change as well and factually and genetically you will still be of a certain biological sex.
As I said, it's not mandatory. It's a personal choice, not much different to a piercing, tattoo or bodymod in my mind. I don't particularly care for any of those, but it's not my body that it's being done to either, so my feelings are largely irrelevant.
Beyond that, the motivations of any other person are going to be somewhat alien, because people cannot truely know or communicate experiences beyond a very surface level. You or I cannot fully understand, because we haven't experienced it. We have to trust that stuff like this is what they want, because that is what they're telling us with the limited communication abilities humans have.
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As I said, it's not mandatory. It's a personal choice, not much different to a piercing, tattoo or bodymod in my mind. I don't particularly care for any of those, but it's not my body that it's being done to either, so my feelings are largely irrelevant.
Beyond that, the motivations of any other person are going to be somewhat alien, because people cannot truely know or communicate experiences beyond a very surface level. You or I cannot fully understand, because we haven't experienced it. We have to trust that stuff like this is what they want, because that is what they're telling us with the limited communication abilities humans have.
Well said. As a doctor I am just worried that sometimes it might not be what they really want. Obviously, people often want and do what is not best for them due to psychological "distortions".
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They used to refer to this ideology as "Metrosexual - Gay in the streets, straight in the sheets."
Isn't that when you have sex with buses?
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Isn't that when you have sex with buses?
Republicans want you to believe so.
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How can this be differentiated of body dysphoria disorders where one perceives their own body as overly flawed or distorted without it being like that? Serious question. I am genuinely concerned about this.
I think Personally, I don't know. However, I am a cis person who has had body dysmorphia. Even when I was unhealthily thin, I perceived myself as disgustingly fat. I genuinely believed that things would be better if I just lost "one more kilo — just one more, and things will all be fine and I'll start seeing myself as a human deserving of respect rather than just a disgusting lump. Yes, I know I said that 5 kilos ago, but just one more will do it".
There was a fundamental mismatch between my perceptions and reality. As a small aside, your comment mentioned "body dysphoria", when I suspect you meant "body dysmorphia" (and "gender dysphoria" is what many trans people experience). I'm not highlighting this to be a persnickety asshole, but because I think the (body) dysmorphia vs (gender) dysphoria contrast is interesting. Whilst my experience was rooted in disproportionately magnified perceptions of flaws, gender dysphoria is rooted in reality: consider someone who is assigned male at birth who later comes out as a trans woman. If she decides to go for medical transition (which typically involves hormones and surgery), these are pretty serious changes that wouldn't make sense if someone already believed they were a cis woman. Rather, the gender dysphoria that many experience arises from an acute understanding of both the biological reality of their body, and the sociocultural reality of how people tend to perceive that body. (I also want to note, as a biochemist, that the way that our bodies respond to hormones is also part of biological reality. Like, if someone assigned male at birth starts taking estrogen, their body will go "cool, guess we're making titties now". Human nature, if it exists as a unified concept at all, is fundamentally fluid, and I wish we spoke about this more)
The key thing in distinguishing between gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia is the proposed treatment. Every kilogram I lost caused me to become more miserable, more caught up in my distorted perceptions, and more physically frail. Even before I had lost an unhealthy amount of weight, it would have been patently clear to an outside observer how bullshit my "just one my kilogram" spiel was. For trans people undergoing medical transition though, it's a completely different story. Whilst I'm told by multiple friends that first starting HRT does feel like taking the red pill in the matrix, the ongoing reality of it isn't quite so dramatic. Many of the changes are permanent, but they're gradual enough that with support and oversight from medical professionals who understand trans people, there is so much opportunity to gauge whether this is the right path for a person. Whilst there are some people who regret transitioning, the regret rate for gender confirmation treatments is stunningly low compared to other cosmetic surgeries (I don't have the number to hand, sorry). In terms of positive treatment outcomes, there are oodles of evidence that show that medical transition is absurdly beneficial — it's a strong enough case that even if I didn't care at all about the wellbeing of trans people, there's a super strong case for the economic benefits of good access to gender affirming healthcare.
To put it simply, the difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria is evident in how they respond to treatment. The therapy I underwent focussed on unwinding and unlearning the false perceptions of myself. In contrast, conversion therapy is not just an inhumane way to respond to gender dysphoria, but proven to be harmful. On the other side of things, indulging my delusions would have just deepened my spiral, whereas medically supported gender transition is proven to save lives and increase trans people's wellbeing.
(N.b. I have focussed on medical transition here because that's the angle that naturally arises from your question. However, not all trans people who experience gender dysphoria necessarily want to medically transition, finding that social transition (living as one's chosen gender) is enough for them. I feel it important to highlight that many trans people I have known have expressed that they feel there would be far fewer trans people feeling they need to undergo medical transition if the world wasn't so shitty to people who are gender non conforming. Also notable is that not all trans people experience gender dysphoria, and there are plenty of trans people who actively want to get away from thinking about things in terms of gender dysphoria, because they feel that it promotes an overly medical approach that can be harmful, such as how access to trans healthcare is increasingly being gatekept for bullshit reasons (their bigotry is transparent because in blocking access to trans healthcare, they are actively ignoring a pretty strong scientific consensus). Honestly though, I'm not the right person to discuss these nuances; I am in community with many trans people, but there's a lot that I just simply can't understand because I don't have any direct lived experience of being trans. Furthermore, the trans community is far from a monolith, so discussions around terms like gender dysphoria, medical transition etc. ongoing.)
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How can this be differentiated of body dysphoria disorders where one perceives their own body as overly flawed or distorted without it being like that? Serious question. I am genuinely concerned about this.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Imagine any other medical condition where a person's appearance is drastically altered but not critically endangering their health, conditions like massive benign tumors, skin conditions like psoriasis, alopecia, etc
We wouldn't question them if they wanted it fixed due to body dysmorphia or dysphoria because as fellow humans we can understand what is like to have a drastic unwanted change to your own body that you did not agree to.
Remember that puberty too, is a drastic change to ones body. Imagine if you had gone through puberty expecting to be fine, and then you go through the sensory torture of developing features on your body that you do not want. Imagine waking up the next day with the body of the opposite gender, except this is what it's like every day for the rest of your life. You might personally be okay with this, but for many, the internal experience of having a mismatched brain and biological sex is unbearable.
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I think Personally, I don't know. However, I am a cis person who has had body dysmorphia. Even when I was unhealthily thin, I perceived myself as disgustingly fat. I genuinely believed that things would be better if I just lost "one more kilo — just one more, and things will all be fine and I'll start seeing myself as a human deserving of respect rather than just a disgusting lump. Yes, I know I said that 5 kilos ago, but just one more will do it".
There was a fundamental mismatch between my perceptions and reality. As a small aside, your comment mentioned "body dysphoria", when I suspect you meant "body dysmorphia" (and "gender dysphoria" is what many trans people experience). I'm not highlighting this to be a persnickety asshole, but because I think the (body) dysmorphia vs (gender) dysphoria contrast is interesting. Whilst my experience was rooted in disproportionately magnified perceptions of flaws, gender dysphoria is rooted in reality: consider someone who is assigned male at birth who later comes out as a trans woman. If she decides to go for medical transition (which typically involves hormones and surgery), these are pretty serious changes that wouldn't make sense if someone already believed they were a cis woman. Rather, the gender dysphoria that many experience arises from an acute understanding of both the biological reality of their body, and the sociocultural reality of how people tend to perceive that body. (I also want to note, as a biochemist, that the way that our bodies respond to hormones is also part of biological reality. Like, if someone assigned male at birth starts taking estrogen, their body will go "cool, guess we're making titties now". Human nature, if it exists as a unified concept at all, is fundamentally fluid, and I wish we spoke about this more)
The key thing in distinguishing between gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia is the proposed treatment. Every kilogram I lost caused me to become more miserable, more caught up in my distorted perceptions, and more physically frail. Even before I had lost an unhealthy amount of weight, it would have been patently clear to an outside observer how bullshit my "just one my kilogram" spiel was. For trans people undergoing medical transition though, it's a completely different story. Whilst I'm told by multiple friends that first starting HRT does feel like taking the red pill in the matrix, the ongoing reality of it isn't quite so dramatic. Many of the changes are permanent, but they're gradual enough that with support and oversight from medical professionals who understand trans people, there is so much opportunity to gauge whether this is the right path for a person. Whilst there are some people who regret transitioning, the regret rate for gender confirmation treatments is stunningly low compared to other cosmetic surgeries (I don't have the number to hand, sorry). In terms of positive treatment outcomes, there are oodles of evidence that show that medical transition is absurdly beneficial — it's a strong enough case that even if I didn't care at all about the wellbeing of trans people, there's a super strong case for the economic benefits of good access to gender affirming healthcare.
To put it simply, the difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria is evident in how they respond to treatment. The therapy I underwent focussed on unwinding and unlearning the false perceptions of myself. In contrast, conversion therapy is not just an inhumane way to respond to gender dysphoria, but proven to be harmful. On the other side of things, indulging my delusions would have just deepened my spiral, whereas medically supported gender transition is proven to save lives and increase trans people's wellbeing.
(N.b. I have focussed on medical transition here because that's the angle that naturally arises from your question. However, not all trans people who experience gender dysphoria necessarily want to medically transition, finding that social transition (living as one's chosen gender) is enough for them. I feel it important to highlight that many trans people I have known have expressed that they feel there would be far fewer trans people feeling they need to undergo medical transition if the world wasn't so shitty to people who are gender non conforming. Also notable is that not all trans people experience gender dysphoria, and there are plenty of trans people who actively want to get away from thinking about things in terms of gender dysphoria, because they feel that it promotes an overly medical approach that can be harmful, such as how access to trans healthcare is increasingly being gatekept for bullshit reasons (their bigotry is transparent because in blocking access to trans healthcare, they are actively ignoring a pretty strong scientific consensus). Honestly though, I'm not the right person to discuss these nuances; I am in community with many trans people, but there's a lot that I just simply can't understand because I don't have any direct lived experience of being trans. Furthermore, the trans community is far from a monolith, so discussions around terms like gender dysphoria, medical transition etc. ongoing.)
Thank you for taking the time to write this.
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Sounds like someone is raw doggin' the internet. That's never a good idea.
Even on your phone, install Firefox, install adblockers, open all website links externally
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Sexual attraction does play a role - I'm not aroused by playing a game, but attractiveness is a type of beauty and I enjoy looking at beauty. I also think that women are just prettier than men even in an entirely non-sexual way, but I wonder how much of that is simply a reflection of being taught that women are the beautiful gender rather than an innate aesthetic preference. That segues into an interest in traditionally feminine social roles. I admit that I'm a bit envious of women, not because I consider myself a woman or want to become a woman, but because women get to be beautiful, delicate, desirable, etc. and men generally don't.
That all makes sense, desiring looking at something beautiful or attractive.
Re envy: that's interesting, so you would like to be able to be like women in that you would like to be able to be beautiful, delicate, desirable and so on?
I think some men can be considered beautiful and desirable - I'm sure women would describe men like Pedro Pascal as being beautiful and desirable
But I hear what you mean that in general women are seen as desired and men as the one desiring, in a sense. I think that's largely social, though I do think estrogen does create traits that we might see as beautiful, such as soft skin, for example.I guess I wonder if you have any examples of beautiful, delicate, or desirable men, and whether you would prefer to be that, or if you could press a button if you would just choose to have been born a woman instead?
