Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia

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Why are you so rude and mean? I actually have an interest in philosophy, which you apparently do too? But I don't use it to like make people feel stupid. I'm nobody. I'm just like a guy with a job and a family that reads hard books. I'm proud of what little intellectual accomplishment I've made, and I encourage others to study. But dude I don't fucking care about reading Leviathan! I'll read books by people who have read it, but not Alain de Botton because he is a turd, but despite a good measure of intellectual curiosity, more than most in my life at least, it isn't something that will come up for me. I'm glad you got so much out of it. made it into your whole identity maybe, but it hasn't come up for me in the way that will lead me to read it, at least not yet! All I can say if on my very long reading list, it isn't on there and I don't see that changing this year.

This book is so important and crucial to your point yet you can't point to a single line or paragraph to support your non existent arguments, which amount to "ur dum". Why not demonstrate how great a book it is by quoting a passage that is relevant? L

I've read more than 6 philosophy books in the last 6 months. You are strawmanning me, because I'm not who you have delusionally convinced yourself that I am. Its completely unnecessary and not at all about the topic at hand.

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It's actually really easy to not be a nazi.

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I'm neutral and you're reading into it.

If you find it offensive that I caught on about you actually not having the authority which you pretend to have on the subject, then the "hostility" is from your own non-acceptance of your ignorance, not me calling out your hypocrisy. If you don't pretend to be an expert falsely, people can't shame you for falsely pretending to be an expert, can they?

But dude I don’t fucking care about reading Leviathan!

Then don't make statements like

“carcerial justice is just as fascistic as anything we associate with fascism” which never gets even thought about let alone discussed anywhere

Because it DOES GET DISCUSSED, you just "don't fucking care" to read the discussion.

Just to alleviate the "you're so mean" thing, the point here is very shortly that you can not have a society without some sort of a government. That probably sounds very authoritarian, because lots of people don't use these words in the same context as they're used in the philosophical discussion of politics. It's because any society that comprises of more than three members will have some sort of rules. And those rules will then be enforced in some way. And that is the question they try to answer in these HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF PHILOSOPHICAL DISCUSSION that isn't hidden anywhere and accessible to pretty much literally everyone in the world through the miracle of the internet, which you claim doesn't exist.

They do explore the alternatives. Pretty much all of them. You should just start with Hobbes because he sort of started the conversation because it was around the time belief in the "divine right of kings" was already faltering. And since you "don't fucking care about reading Leviathan", you might put on the "baby philosophy" or whatever you called it (seems you've cleaned up your answer a bit) from de Botton and quickly listen to the cliffnotes on what he thought about it from a guy — who is making pop-philosophy videos, yes, but — who also is a professional philosopher and is objectively communicating their ideas rather skilfully. As that will save you time on reading the centuries of books on the matter as you can get the cliffnotes or sort of "previously on:" so that you can get to the book that you're more interested in reading but which comments a lot on the earlier works which you may or may not have read.

Like 14 years ago or something I had just recently seen Slavoj Zizek, and I enjoyed his analysis (and honestly just his person.) So after watching some of his speeches and the The Pervert's Guide to Cinema and The Pervert's Guide to Cinema, I decided to pick up a book of his. It's genuinely the only book I've ever just given up on, as back then I was nearly as read and it made so many references to specific ideas of specific earlier philosophers, that I spent like a few days getting through just the first pages as I had to teach my self so much stuff backwardly before really understanding what Slavoj was trying to say. I also tried reading it without doing that and it was fine, you can keep up the context somewhat, but I noticed after a chapter or two that I had gotten something wrong on a fundamental level and had been getting some tiny idea wrong for a few pages and it had coloured my read of it and I had to do it all again.

So, because Hobbes is one of the fundamental thinkers on the subject, despite his own personal political views, he does make good and fundamental points about society. They're not too complex, so you honestly don't need to read the entire book. Fucking read a wiki-article what do I care. I'm just trying to point out that because you're trying to make spending a night in a drunk tank "as fascist" as marching people to a gas chamber, you don't seem to have a too nuanced understanding of the necessities of certain control measures in a society.

Google "State of Nature" to start with idk.

Like idk how you'd expect me to politely inform you of just how wrong you were in that statement because it would require me to author a succinct reply that would still convey hundreds of years of philosophical ponderings which you thought didn't even exist?

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That's generally how it works in countries with hate speech laws, yes.

Also for the record in Germany the salute doesn't qualify as incitement to hatred, at least not without further context, it's plain and simply use of a symbol of an outlawed organisation, which is punishable if it is done in the furtherance of that kind of organisation. Same law applies to e.g. 1%er badges. I think there's "gang symbols" type legislation in the US, so why the sudden pearl-clutching when the violent goons signalling each other happen to be Nazis? It's a criminal organisation having had their official structures banned still trying to organise, that's illegal.

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about any traffic violation or all fines in general?

Not all "legal offenses" are crimes. Legal systems have categories for a reason. Got caught loitering in the act? That can quite simply be solved by just have you go back to pick up your trash. Some things should not be punishable with jail, some others should, nazism clearly belongs in the later category.

And it probably won’t solve the issue anyway. Just putting people in jail seldom does imo. Yanks have already tried that.

Lemme let you in on a secret:

Yanks don't send people to jail to "solve crime". They don't want to "solve crime". They fill jails to have a cheap abusable workforce. They've even come out saying it openly out loud. Why do you think it's black people or homeless people 90% of the time?

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Can Canada do this too?

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See, I am overall against any and all limits of free speech but...

Yeah. Context matters. And in current world context, good job Australia, hope outher countries take notes.

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Not all “legal offenses” are crimes.

If that's what you feel makes a difference for my argument, let me ask:

"Do you think the same about any crime in general? We should throw people in the jail for a year, mnimum, because otherwise it’s just a tax on not being rich enough for the crime?"

Yanks don’t send people to jail to “solve crime”. They don’t want to “solve crime”. They fill jails to have a cheap abusable workforce. They’ve even come out saying it openly out loud. Why do you think it’s black people or homeless people 90% of the time?

Do you think people behind this think this will solve hate?

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Literal hate crimes, I'm all for. A gesture with your arm gets you 12 months? That's too much, regardless of its origin or meaning.

I'll say, likely wasting my digital breath, I do not support any sort of Nazi bullshit or affiliates. But truly, outlawing gestures is a next level, knee jerk reaction to a problem they don't know what else to do to solve.

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targeting Jewish Australians.

There it is. I'll bet criticizing Isreal is considered anti-semetic too. Meanwhile Aboriginals still don't have rights.

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I'm not pearl clutching. I'm a free speech absolutist. I support cosplay Nazis right to free just like I support people's rights to call cops pigs, etc. Also gang signs aren't illegal.

You'd be surprised how many times free speech has benefited people. Remember how many up votes praising Luigi Mangione got, now those same people want to eliminate free speech. Good luck to them. I'll just sit here & watch as I get downvoted into oblivion.

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cosplay

Not what anyone is talking about.

Democrats

Luigi Mangione

You mean the party that co-created the conditions that made that happen. The US is completely cooked politically speaking, you're not a standard or role model for anyone.

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It's a nazi fucken salute mate. What part of it isn't a hate crime?

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Where are you from? America has become the most successful superpower due to free speech. Go ahead tell us how much we suck. Maybe you should go look in the mirror first though.

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It's illegal to do it "in public". So doing it at work is perfectly fine, as long as it isn't a public place.

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So doing it at work is perfectly fine

Alright. Make me a video of you giving the salute to to your boss during work hours and we'll see how it goes.

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Maybe he works at Tesla? Hell probably get a raise and employee of the month trophy.

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Have you watched the news lately.

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This thread is a fuckin roller-coaster of back and forths!

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A fine works if it's a significant amount of the finee's net worth, but because fines are not scaled proportionally to finee's net worth (or even scaled at all) it's my opinion that these things just work as a paywall, including things like traffic violations.

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Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia