SystemD
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I have recently been exposed to a lot of stuff against systemd.
I know its an old debate that has inflamed people for a long time, I am not looking into restarting it as I never took a stance into it in the past anyway.
I am myself a almost 30+ years power user of Linux and I have never used systemd much myself since it never fixed any issues I had with the previous approaches, and since I am a good user of Gentoo, always loved the freedom to just keep using OpenRC and din't ever bother with systemd.
I like the Unix approach and at the same time, if it is not broken don't fix it, is my basic idea. So my approach to systemd has been not of dislike, rather of I don't care, I don't need it. And I never needed it anyway.
After reading trough most of the links below I start to think that maybe my stance could be more than simple technical.
What are other lemmy-ers idea on all this?
I didn't knew about Microsoft taking over the fsf either, and I am getting concerned about the real freedom behind my beloved Linux.
(The following is a post on the #libreware telegram channel on the 7th/8th of February 2025)
Lennart Poettering intends to replace "sudo" with #systemd's run0. Here's a quick PoC to demonstrate root permission hijacking by exploiting the fact "systemd-run" (the basis of uid0/run0, the sudo replacer) creates a user owned pty for communication with the new "root" process.
This isn't the only bug of course, it's not possible on Linux to read the environment of a root owned process but as systemd creates a service in the system slice, you can query D-BUS and learn sensitive information passed to the process env, such as API keys or other secrets.
https://fixupx.com/hackerfantastic/status/1785495587514638559
Nitter mirror: https://xcancel.com/hackerfantastic/status/1785495587514638559
Here are some links about #systemd #alternatives for #Linux in no particular order.
Which are your favorite alternatives and distros?https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/
https://unixsheikh.com/articles/the-real-motivation-behind-systemd.html
https://sysdfree.wordpress.com/
https://skarnet.org/software/systemd.html
https://the-world-after-systemd.ungleich.ch/
https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=120652
https://www.devuan.org/os/announce/
https://www.devuan.org/os/init-freedom
https://thehackernews.com/2019/01/linux-systemd-exploit.html
https://judecnelson.blogspot.com/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html
https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2016/05/18/systemd-it-keeps-getting-worse/
https://systemd-free.artixlinux.org/why.php
Some more added here too: https://start.me/p/Kg8keE/priv-sec
#systemd #Linux
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L [email protected] shared this topic
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Systemd has more features than old SysV init scripts. Particularly around detecting events and taking actions such as starting firewalls when joining networks, turning on battery tools when unplugged from a charger, starting new services when connected to a dock etc.
The other things it does, it does more reliably than sysV init scripts. It starts services concurrently, provides a profiler to improve start up time, contains much less code, provides better security to tapping into the container features of Linux.
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Where did you get this idea?
I didn’t knew about Microsoft taking over the fsf either, and I am getting concerned about the real freedom behind my beloved Linux.
I think you are confusing FSF with the Linux Foundation, and you can see MS as part of the platinum LF members. Was that it, or you really meant FSF?
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I don't know what systemd does and now I'm too afraid to ask.jpg
Also obligatory fuck microsoft, go crawl and Embrace other stuff.
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You are right... I will fix the top post
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Nothing that I never needed on my systems (servers, laptops and workstations so far, even an android tablet converted to Linux are all Gentoo with OpenRC).
Anyway what you describe is done at DBUS level which has nothing to do with an init system. I do have DBUS and works just fine as it would with OpenRC or SystemD either.
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I don't understand what you are talking about.
I like reading a post with a clear topic and reasoning, unfortunately it's not obivous to me.
Something like "I dislike systemd because XY. What do you think?" Would help me.
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I don't dislike systemd, I never cared about systemd.
Do I need to start caring now due to all those non technical issues?
(Tldr added to top post)
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A lot of man-hours went into engineering it. Very smart people from many distros went over it, kicked its tires and deemed it good enough to replace old SysV. We've been through this, if you don't like it for some reason, use something else.
It's just software, people, it's not a frelling religion.
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Why do you feel a need to form an opinion on this based on what others think?
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Did you read my post at all? Maybe I am not clear enough.
I don't care for systemd, I don't dislike it I don't like it. I don't use it but merely because I never felt the need to use it, or I would have use it.
What people think of the non technical reasons given in the links/post is what I am asking. Is it just FUD or there is a valid base to them?
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I really love all the 5+ years old articles about why systemd sucks.
It's not perfect but it's so much better than the plethora of different init methods Linux used to have. Also managing sysv init scripts sucked really bad.
It's lightweight, most of it is optional, it's declarative, it makes managing your systems much easier and it just works. -
Gentoo user here too.
I once switched to systemd, but didn't stay using it for too long. Back then some things didn't work with systemd.
Nowdays my systems use seatd instead of logind or elogind. Some have musl toolchain.
It's just simpler, currently, for me to use OpenRC on all of my setups.
But the thing I most disliked with systemd was that it cannot work without journald. -
Fellow gentooer! I love how much you can actually decide by yourself how to craft your system with Gentoo.
OpenRC just rocks, a few lines of bash and all is set. But indeed is not for everybody.... (Joking).
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How do you know a post was written by a systemd hater? Easy, they'll spell it with a big D for some reason. It reminds me of how Norwegian rabid anti-cyclists are unable to spell "cyclist" for some reason.
Claiming you don't want to restart an old debate and then trying to restart it anyway is pretty funny.
You might also want to keep in mind that you can't really force an init system on Linux distros. Systemd became the norm through being preferred, as in, the people using and maintaining it think it's good. At this point you might as well be ranting about how "LinuX is evil somehow" and we should all be using GNU HURD or Minix or something.
Also: Haven't thought about suckless in well over a decade, maybe closer to two? I guess way back in the day I was kinda intrigued by their ideas and used some of their products; these days I'd rather see them as something between an art shop and people who are playing a somewhat unusual game with themselves, but not particularly relevant to mainstream software engineering.
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How is musl? Does it make a difference on glibc?
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Exchange of opinions is a great way to learn and broaden your views.
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I think when systend goes into systemv, a systemb is born almost a year later
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I am not debating it's good or bad from a technical perspective, i don't care, i am sure it's good otherwise why use it at all.
Why are you focusing on that? I never said it's been forced, i never said its bad or evil, i never discredited it.
I think it's worth understanding if the non technical points are just FUD or not, i worry about the future of Linux, not the future of it's init system whatever it is, all it need to do is satisfy it's function and OpenRC do it as well as systemd (there, with the small d is it different?).
I was under the impression SystemD was the name, with the capitals and all. Will fix the top post if this is somehow offending you. Whatever.
