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  3. Anti-Leninists, what is something you'd like to tell tankies that we actually never heard?

Anti-Leninists, what is something you'd like to tell tankies that we actually never heard?

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Asklemmy
asklemmy
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  • Y This user is from outside of this forum
    Y This user is from outside of this forum
    [email protected]
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    I won't downvote anything

    muntedcrocodile@lemm.eeM lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.mlL crimedad@lemmy.crimedad.workC U R 8 Replies Last reply
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    • Y [email protected]

      I won't downvote anything

      muntedcrocodile@lemm.eeM This user is from outside of this forum
      muntedcrocodile@lemm.eeM This user is from outside of this forum
      [email protected]
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Tankie is a broad term. Are u just an idealist commie or do u legitimately support genocidal regimes?

      I would like you to look into the commonalities in teaching methods between your beliefs/community, religion, neo Nazis, and ideological indoctrination in general. Look at the classic applications such as redefining meanings of words, the complete denial of descenting opinions simply because they are descenting, the belief in something greater than oneself etc etc.

      I would like you to write down your most fundamental beliefs then right down your best argument for those beliefs then I want you to write you best argument to disprove that belief.

      I would like you to come up with as many contradictions within your own ideology as possible without rationalising that contradictory belief to yourself.

      I'd like u to read nineteen eighty four and then write an argument how the practice's of big brother have been used to indoctrinate you. Then right an argument against that argument.

      I'm not here to tell you how to live or what to think I'd just like you to legitimately challenge your own thoughts to the best of your ability.

      Good luck on your journey to becoming a free thinker.

      A cypherpunks@lemmy.mlC T fidel_cashflow@lemmy.mlF 4 Replies Last reply
      0
      • muntedcrocodile@lemm.eeM [email protected]

        Tankie is a broad term. Are u just an idealist commie or do u legitimately support genocidal regimes?

        I would like you to look into the commonalities in teaching methods between your beliefs/community, religion, neo Nazis, and ideological indoctrination in general. Look at the classic applications such as redefining meanings of words, the complete denial of descenting opinions simply because they are descenting, the belief in something greater than oneself etc etc.

        I would like you to write down your most fundamental beliefs then right down your best argument for those beliefs then I want you to write you best argument to disprove that belief.

        I would like you to come up with as many contradictions within your own ideology as possible without rationalising that contradictory belief to yourself.

        I'd like u to read nineteen eighty four and then write an argument how the practice's of big brother have been used to indoctrinate you. Then right an argument against that argument.

        I'm not here to tell you how to live or what to think I'd just like you to legitimately challenge your own thoughts to the best of your ability.

        Good luck on your journey to becoming a free thinker.

        A This user is from outside of this forum
        A This user is from outside of this forum
        [email protected]
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Isn't 1984 a fictional book?

        Have heard people say online that Inventing Reality and Manufactured Consent are better than that for analysis.

        Haven't read any of those books tho.
        Which would be better?

        deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • A [email protected]

          Isn't 1984 a fictional book?

          Have heard people say online that Inventing Reality and Manufactured Consent are better than that for analysis.

          Haven't read any of those books tho.
          Which would be better?

          deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD This user is from outside of this forum
          deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD This user is from outside of this forum
          [email protected]
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          1984 was intended as fictional. Eric Blair wrote it in 1948.

          I'm not sure that it is anymore.

          R 1 Reply Last reply
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          • deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD [email protected]

            1984 was intended as fictional. Eric Blair wrote it in 1948.

            I'm not sure that it is anymore.

            R This user is from outside of this forum
            R This user is from outside of this forum
            [email protected]
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Don't you mean George Orwell?

            And yes, it's fictional, but it's a condemnation of Stalinism.

            deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • Y [email protected]

              I won't downvote anything

              lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.mlL This user is from outside of this forum
              lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.mlL This user is from outside of this forum
              [email protected]
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Isn't always true. Just because a country/political faction opposes US hegemony doesn't automatically make them morally superior.

              yogthos@lemmy.mlY bennieandthez@lemmygrad.mlB ? 3 Replies Last reply
              0
              • R [email protected]

                Don't you mean George Orwell?

                And yes, it's fictional, but it's a condemnation of Stalinism.

                deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD This user is from outside of this forum
                deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD This user is from outside of this forum
                [email protected]
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                George Orwell's real name was Eric Blair.

                edie@lemmy.mlE 1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD [email protected]

                  George Orwell's real name was Eric Blair.

                  edie@lemmy.mlE This user is from outside of this forum
                  edie@lemmy.mlE This user is from outside of this forum
                  [email protected]
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Racist, imperial cop, rapist, worker hating, Eric Blair? That guy?

                  deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD 1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • muntedcrocodile@lemm.eeM [email protected]

                    Tankie is a broad term. Are u just an idealist commie or do u legitimately support genocidal regimes?

                    I would like you to look into the commonalities in teaching methods between your beliefs/community, religion, neo Nazis, and ideological indoctrination in general. Look at the classic applications such as redefining meanings of words, the complete denial of descenting opinions simply because they are descenting, the belief in something greater than oneself etc etc.

                    I would like you to write down your most fundamental beliefs then right down your best argument for those beliefs then I want you to write you best argument to disprove that belief.

                    I would like you to come up with as many contradictions within your own ideology as possible without rationalising that contradictory belief to yourself.

                    I'd like u to read nineteen eighty four and then write an argument how the practice's of big brother have been used to indoctrinate you. Then right an argument against that argument.

                    I'm not here to tell you how to live or what to think I'd just like you to legitimately challenge your own thoughts to the best of your ability.

                    Good luck on your journey to becoming a free thinker.

                    cypherpunks@lemmy.mlC This user is from outside of this forum
                    cypherpunks@lemmy.mlC This user is from outside of this forum
                    [email protected]
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    Iโ€™d like u to read nineteen eighty four and then write an argument how the practiceโ€™s of big brother have been used to indoctrinate you.

                    I'd like you to read Isaac Asimov's review of 1984, followed by Orwell's review of Mein Kampf, and then to ponder what you yourself have been indoctrinated by.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • edie@lemmy.mlE [email protected]

                      Racist, imperial cop, rapist, worker hating, Eric Blair? That guy?

                      deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD This user is from outside of this forum
                      deadcatbounce@reddthat.comD This user is from outside of this forum
                      [email protected]
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      I know he started as a communist/socialist but began to change his mind over time.

                      His books changed their political leanings over time; for my interpretation at least.

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • Y [email protected]

                        I won't downvote anything

                        crimedad@lemmy.crimedad.workC This user is from outside of this forum
                        crimedad@lemmy.crimedad.workC This user is from outside of this forum
                        [email protected]
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        Maybe anarchists are necessary to help keep the revolutionary state honest. However, I don't know if I'd go so far as to call myself an anti-Leninist.

                        yogthos@lemmy.mlY bennieandthez@lemmygrad.mlB 2 Replies Last reply
                        0
                        • crimedad@lemmy.crimedad.workC [email protected]

                          Maybe anarchists are necessary to help keep the revolutionary state honest. However, I don't know if I'd go so far as to call myself an anti-Leninist.

                          yogthos@lemmy.mlY This user is from outside of this forum
                          yogthos@lemmy.mlY This user is from outside of this forum
                          [email protected]
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Honestly, I find there's a lot of overlap between Marxism and Anarcho-syndicalism, and I think this is essentially the correct way for the workforce to be organized.

                          crimedad@lemmy.crimedad.workC T 2 Replies Last reply
                          0
                          • lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.mlL [email protected]

                            "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Isn't always true. Just because a country/political faction opposes US hegemony doesn't automatically make them morally superior.

                            yogthos@lemmy.mlY This user is from outside of this forum
                            yogthos@lemmy.mlY This user is from outside of this forum
                            [email protected]
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            That's not what MLs actually believe, we have the concept of critical support. It's the act of backing a cause, group, or individual while maintaining a clear-eyed critique of their flaws, contradictions, or harmful actions. Itโ€™s not unconditional endorsement but a pragmatic stance that balances solidarity with accountability.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • muntedcrocodile@lemm.eeM [email protected]

                              Tankie is a broad term. Are u just an idealist commie or do u legitimately support genocidal regimes?

                              I would like you to look into the commonalities in teaching methods between your beliefs/community, religion, neo Nazis, and ideological indoctrination in general. Look at the classic applications such as redefining meanings of words, the complete denial of descenting opinions simply because they are descenting, the belief in something greater than oneself etc etc.

                              I would like you to write down your most fundamental beliefs then right down your best argument for those beliefs then I want you to write you best argument to disprove that belief.

                              I would like you to come up with as many contradictions within your own ideology as possible without rationalising that contradictory belief to yourself.

                              I'd like u to read nineteen eighty four and then write an argument how the practice's of big brother have been used to indoctrinate you. Then right an argument against that argument.

                              I'm not here to tell you how to live or what to think I'd just like you to legitimately challenge your own thoughts to the best of your ability.

                              Good luck on your journey to becoming a free thinker.

                              T This user is from outside of this forum
                              T This user is from outside of this forum
                              [email protected]
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Meh if you want a good critique of the Bolsheviks by somebody who actually was an old Bolshevik check out the book We instead.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • yogthos@lemmy.mlY [email protected]

                                Honestly, I find there's a lot of overlap between Marxism and Anarcho-syndicalism, and I think this is essentially the correct way for the workforce to be organized.

                                crimedad@lemmy.crimedad.workC This user is from outside of this forum
                                crimedad@lemmy.crimedad.workC This user is from outside of this forum
                                [email protected]
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                For a while, that's probably how I would have sorted myself, but how are the anarcho-syndicalists on taking power from capital and wielding it? How does that differ from Lenin's guidance? (Part of why I don't call myself an anti-Leninist is that I haven't read any Lenin lol.)

                                yogthos@lemmy.mlY cowbee@lemmy.mlC 2 Replies Last reply
                                0
                                • crimedad@lemmy.crimedad.workC [email protected]

                                  For a while, that's probably how I would have sorted myself, but how are the anarcho-syndicalists on taking power from capital and wielding it? How does that differ from Lenin's guidance? (Part of why I don't call myself an anti-Leninist is that I haven't read any Lenin lol.)

                                  yogthos@lemmy.mlY This user is from outside of this forum
                                  yogthos@lemmy.mlY This user is from outside of this forum
                                  [email protected]
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  As far I'm aware, Anarcho-syndicalists don't really provide a solution for changing the system as a whole. Meanwhile, Lenin focused specifically on achieving a socialist revolution. Lenin primarily dealt with the task of organizing and education the masses to create a revolutionary force that would be able to seize power from the capitalists. The two most prominent works I'd recommend starting with would be What Is To be Done? and The State and Revolution.

                                  • https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/
                                  • https://redsails.org/witbd-rs-abridged/
                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.mlL [email protected]

                                    "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Isn't always true. Just because a country/political faction opposes US hegemony doesn't automatically make them morally superior.

                                    bennieandthez@lemmygrad.mlB This user is from outside of this forum
                                    bennieandthez@lemmygrad.mlB This user is from outside of this forum
                                    [email protected]
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    Even tho we don't care about it, the US holds no moral high ground on any country.

                                    lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.mlL 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • Y [email protected]

                                      I won't downvote anything

                                      U This user is from outside of this forum
                                      U This user is from outside of this forum
                                      [email protected]
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      Lennin's "state and revolution" and accepting China as a communist country are in conflict with each other. Most tankies or "Marxist-Lenninist" are distorting both Marx and Lennin. Communism in one country can not exists for long without a global overthrow of the capitalist class. Yes, the state in these various countries control the economy more or less, but who controls the state? My assertion, and most other Trotskyists, is that its not the workers.

                                      Y F cowbee@lemmy.mlC 4 Replies Last reply
                                      0
                                      • U [email protected]

                                        Lennin's "state and revolution" and accepting China as a communist country are in conflict with each other. Most tankies or "Marxist-Lenninist" are distorting both Marx and Lennin. Communism in one country can not exists for long without a global overthrow of the capitalist class. Yes, the state in these various countries control the economy more or less, but who controls the state? My assertion, and most other Trotskyists, is that its not the workers.

                                        Y This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Y This user is from outside of this forum
                                        [email protected]
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        China adds 7.2% to military budget: CHUYNA IMPERIALISM

                                        America tells its allies to double already overblown military budget: DEMOCRACY IS NONNEGOTIABLE

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • U [email protected]

                                          Lennin's "state and revolution" and accepting China as a communist country are in conflict with each other. Most tankies or "Marxist-Lenninist" are distorting both Marx and Lennin. Communism in one country can not exists for long without a global overthrow of the capitalist class. Yes, the state in these various countries control the economy more or less, but who controls the state? My assertion, and most other Trotskyists, is that its not the workers.

                                          Y This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Y This user is from outside of this forum
                                          [email protected]
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          We addressed this point on Prolewiki: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_China#Abandoning_of_Marxism/Capitalist_restoration

                                          muntedcrocodile@lemm.eeM 1 Reply Last reply
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