Which instances have the most diverse points of view?

[cowbee@lemmy.ml]

Lmao, I think considering me a "juggernaut" is very funny, I'm just a dude online that happens to take Marxism seriously

[db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com]

Getting exploited is certainly not socialistic. The fact that things improved compared to feudalism doesn't mean it was socialist, every capitalist state improved over feudalism. They were just worse than others because they were red fascists who ruled with an iron first until they fucked it up so much it collapsed under its own internal contradictions. Like fascists tend to do.

Saying that most people were working for a wage isn't "fringe" it's the goddamn truth. The whip doesn't disappear because it's the people's whip. It's in fact why "aes" is laughable as a goal. "sure let's just do a revolution so I can work for a boss again, because this time it's the peoples boss" said no one ever.

Anarchists have always been betrayed by MLs in revolutionary periods. Always. Cooperating by doing some anarchist direct action in modern capitalist societies isn't changing that.

[cowbee@lemmy.ml]

Not all labor is exploitation, nor is getting paid for labor exploitation. Labor as a commodity purchased for below its value for the purpose of profit is exploitation, but such a system wasn't descriptive of the Soviet or Cuban economies past the NEP. Rather than flowing into the pockets of an owning class like in Feudalism or Capitalism, the social production was channeled into public services, infrastructure, and more. What caused the overall collapse of the economy in the Soviet Union was trying to keep pace with the US millitarily, which required spending a far greater percentage of GDP on Millitary R&D and development.

Further, the absolutely wild jump to fascism is completely divorced from reality. Read Blackshirts and Reds, fascism has served the Bourgeoisie at the expense of the proletariat and is thoroughly anti-communist. You went from "Anarchism is the only form of Socialism" to an even more absurd "Marxism is fascist."

Moreover, I did not say that AES states don't have wages, I said wage slavery is not the same as getting paid for labor. This is either dishonesty or a genuine misunderstanding on your part.

Anarchists have not always been betrayed, again, the only supporters of the Spanish Anarchists were the Soviets.

[grammarpolice@sh.itjust.works]

Nah bro you definitely also should give yourself some props. You're probably the most ardent Marxist on the fediverse. Even though your contributions may not have reached the heights of db0's you're still quite influential in your sphere iykwim.

You're the father of fediverse Marxism while db0 is the father of fediverse Anarchism.

[cowbee@lemmy.ml]

I seriously disagree, there are many better than me over on Lemmygrad and Hexbear. I just spend more time on federated instances.

[db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com]

If you think the anarchists of Spain weren't betrayed and undermined by the Republicans and Stalinists, I don't know what to tell you. Tell yourself what you want but anarchists won't forget next time.

All labor where the workers do not directly and democratically control their output is slavery. The party bureaucracy setting wages, output, managers and destroying the unions and the soviets put exactly wage slavery into practice.

What caused the collapse of theater Soviet union was the internal contradictions of an inherently flawed capitalist system. If the workers had freedom they would have never given it up. But the revolution was betrayed from the start and they never got that freedom.

And yes, leninist/stalinist form of authoritarianism is akin to fascism. It's why anarchists call them red fash. Is that also a new term for you? Look it up someday.

[grammarpolice@sh.itjust.works]

Willingness to engage outside the echo chamber and in good faith makes you better than them in my book

[canadaplus@lemmy.sdf.org]

Small, niche communities, and unfortunately you'll probably need to know what ideas you're interested in ahead of time to get there.

People with intelligent but divergent ideas are always outnumbered by people pushing an agenda, and they end up getting moderated together because it's hard to know the difference superficially.

Note that it's entirely possible to have an echo chamber that's divergent from bigger echo chambers, and that's were a lot of people are pointing you, because of the instance you asked on.

[cowbee@lemmy.ml]

It was actually a Trotskyist faction, itself against AES, that led to a breakdown between the Anarchists and Marxists in Spain. The Marxists remained the only supporters of the Anarchists. Seems you did forget.

As for "slavery," by this definition taxes are slavery and public services are slavery. Marx already went over how workers cannot own all of that which they create in Socialism directly, as from a given worker's production needs to be deducted necessary maintenance of administration, social services, and more in Critique of the Gotha Programme. By your definition, Socialism is slavery. Further still, the Soviets were never disbanded, and there were still Unions. Your history is off again.

What "contradictions" do you believe led to the collapse of the Soviet Union? How was the revolution "betrayed?" What "freedoms" did the workers give up? This is all vague and vibes-based.

You still didn't elaborate on how Marxism is "akin to fascism." I'm aware of the term "red-fash," it's a ridiculous term and I linked you a book thoroughly explaining why. I can't force you to read it, nor can I force you to make a coherent point.

[cowbee@lemmy.ml]

I'd say that's more of an energy consumption and willpower thing than being a "father of Marxism" for the fediverse. Further, @[email protected] would have that title anyways as the lead dev of Lemmy itself. I wouldn't call the Marxist instances "echo chambers," living in Capitalist countries in general are already echo chambers, it's the Marxist communities that challenge the echo chamber.

As a side note, did you read Blackshirts and Reds?

[db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com]

Your constant insistence that I'm incoherent is acerbic and I have no patience for it.

[cowbee@lemmy.ml]

Fair enough, but I think that goes both ways. You usually make a claim, then when pressed act vague about it. I admire your work on the Piracy communities and your FOSS development quite a bit, but I don't think you act honestly when it comes to political conversations, such as jumping to labeling Marxists "fascist" without elaborating.

[grammarpolice@sh.itjust.works]

dessalines

Not bro

It's the Marxist communities that challenge the echo chamber.

And by so doing become echo chambers of their critiques. Anywhere on the internet that is saturated with those who think alike is an echo chamber.

As a side note, did you read Blackshirts and Reds?

I read a bit. I haven't really been able to get through it cuz i have exams coming up. So i should get to it when those are over.

[cowbee@lemmy.ml]

Don't know what you're saying about Dessalines.

As for "echo chambers," they don't exist devoid of context. An "echo chamber" mirroring the positions of the status quo upholds it, while one going against the grain disrupts the status quo. They aren't equally "echo-y."

Good on you for starting Blackshirts and Reds, good luck on your exams!

[grammarpolice@sh.itjust.works]

I'm saying bro is not all that.

They may not be equally echoey but they're still quite echoey and often deafeningly so.

good luck on your exams!

Thanks!

[mortemtyrannis@lemmy.ml]

What kind of diversity of thought are you looking for?

Could you give an example?

Is there an intellectually honest point of view that Donald Trump isn’t a fascist?

[orteilgenou@lemmy.world]

I don't think he's a fascist necessarily, although he is a far-right, authoritarian ultranationalist. So that makes him... oh.

[db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com]

Yes yes we know the lies told about it. Again, people can go and read on their own about the slaughter of anarchists that happened there.

I didn't call Marxists fascists. I called Lenin's and Stalin's regime red fash.

And I don't act vague, I just don't have the patience to reopen 100 old debates

[cowbee@lemmy.ml]

"Lies?" It's on Wikipedia, lol. As for Marxism, I genuinely don't know what mythical form of Marxism you think is "real" Marxism in your eyes, again, read Blackshirts and Reds.

[db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com]

Links to Wikipedia Wikipedia talks about an anarcho syndicalist. Whatever man