Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia

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Sorry I deleted that comment, I didn't like my tone.

Personally I'm not a prison abolitionist. I'd like to see an end to it, ideally, but realistically that would be an amount of practical work beyond just simple reforms, the whole of society would have to be changed. I'm into that, which is why I don't ideally dismiss it.

I treated it better elsewhere, here I just said "you can't snap your fingers" but what I mean is prisons and police they actually are the answer to a lot of problems in society. I agree with you, I would like to see much more reform programs rather than the USA prison system that "needs" prisons, which isn't to say every prison is a social necessity, more like there are political and economic incentive structures that make meaningful progressive change extremely difficult. But my father was a prison guard, and we don't agree much on politics, especially when it comes to carcerial justice, but that man had seen some absolute monsterous behavior from people who are basically unreformable by any modern standard -- and as much as I wish that wasn't the case and I wish they had been given the opportunity for a better life where maybe they wouldn't have lost every bit of their humanity, that doesn't change reality.

However I do think that a society that proliferates carcerial justice the way that we do in the USA, which is all my experience is about, I dont know about Aussie prisons, is not one that is able to restore or even preserve the humanity of all its citizens. A society that makes monsters needs a place to put them; however a place to put monsters creates a demand for monstrousness that must be met. This is whag I would mean to abolish.

Thanks for the response, I did take it personally but thanks for clarifying your position

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Once someone buys into Nazi rhetoric it can take decades to deprogram them. How do you suggest this to be done when it takes far shorter amount of time to spread their rhetoric?

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Their point is that not only does jailing them not deprogram them or prevent them from spreading their rhetoric, it is more likely to have the opposite effect.

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That is a poor point and allowing it to spread is the reality we are actually facing.

Case in point. Germany has been tightly controlling this for several decades. Is their society now overran by Nazi rhetoric? The answer is no.

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I think we would agree that for profit prisons are an absolute atrocity. I harbour a lot of hate for certain types of criminals, but for profit prison is downright evil and corrupt right off the bat. Protecting the public must include rehabilitation or you're just releasing monsters. I would separate violent and non violent, i would also throw every intervention at the problem and see what works, employ the success stories, end poverty fist and foremost. In my opininion, incarceration is necessary mostly because society has failed, in some caes it is however, unavoidable.

I appreciate your perspective and experience on the subject. Thank you.

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interesting, that kind of fine would be nice for us to have in Australia. i agree with you honestly, a fine for something like this would be good as long as it's hefty and proportional to income

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Some people need to be separated. This isn't about censorship, it's about group dynamics.

Let's take it from both angles - just to avoid politics. A disruptive kid in a classroom affects every other kid. Get rid of that kid, and suddenly the whole classroom improves. Everyone can agree to that.

The other side - a company has a pro-union worker. Shitty company doesn't like not controlling their workers, so they find a way to fire them.

Back to the Nazi, separate them from the rest of society. We don't need them.

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Send nazi pig Elon there on a one way flight.

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Being German, unfortunately the answer to that is yes, but it didn’t happen in a vacuum, it’s because the media and politicians have been courting right wing ideologies over the past 20 years to an extent that things have become normalized that should have never been normalized, e.g. framing asylum seekers as „migrants“ and adopting dehumanizing language against them, which has led to us having AFD polling at 20% and CDU at 30%.

CDU has recently collaborated with the right wing extremist AFD to push through a proposal for an anti-migration bill that violates our constitution. There has been an uproar but CDU and AFD actually polled higher after this. Our country is in deep trouble and we’re moving into a very scary direction.

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That example proves the first users point. The answer to the German question is that they spend a great deal of money on having an excellent education system, and spend a lot of time educating their youth with an honest, unflinching look at the history of Nazism and fascism.

I’m not even saying don’t throw people in jail, I’m simply saying it is pure idiocy to believe that will do anything at all to help the underlying problem.

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As an American, this feels wrong on the surface with our broad first amendment and all.

They do not give a rat's fuck about YOUR freedom of speech and expression, and have been fighting in every single legal and illegal manner to suppress it. At this point in time it must be acknowledged that there needs to be that limit on them to force them back into being a small pathetic group that they were and to hopefully allow society to outgrow them in the future.

They will be 'so much for the tolerant left' so matter what you do, and they will actively censor anyone and anything they don't like also no matter what. Liberals have been highly prone to hiring fascist and bigoted nutjobs in order to allow for a more 'balanced' perspective, but any attempt to make them hire more liberal minded people for their own platforms is brushed aside without a second thought. That shit doesn't work on them. They want access to your stuff while also 100% forbidding you from even looking at their stuff.

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No disagreement on the reality of the evil bullshit going on around here, that’s for sure. It was just a throwaway line on my part to set up the comment, but as always the devil is in the details.

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If anyone with enough money and power does this they will likely not have it applied to them. It was just a weird awkward gesture right?

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but…

That's where you lost me.

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Sure! What's worthy of more punishment, stealing packages from your neighbors doorstep or doing a Nazi salute? How about assaulting someone and mugging them? I think those are both worse than a nazi salute and deserving of more punishment. A Nazi salute wouldn't affect me at all except to be annoyed at their idiocy. Beating me up or stealing my stuff definitely impacts me. I don't have a clear idea of how much punishment is reasonable, but probably something less than the punishment for petty theft. That's my two cents.

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I asked you what level of punishment is appropriate. You did not answer.

And it's nice of you to have the privilege to not be affected by a Nazi salute. Jews like me don't have that luxury, because many of us have personally experienced what comes next. And I don't mean during WWII.

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Well, as im sure you are aware, once a label is given power, then it can and will inevitably be used for other purposes. If you can jail people who have been labeled as nazis or terrorists or whatever, then it's just a matter of time until that label gets abused.

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Thank you for that perspective. It is sad to see all that diligence being chipped away.

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Nothing the Nazis did was technically illegal

What?

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Mandatory jail term for Nazi salute under new hate crime rules in Australia