The best thing you can do for the fediverse is just be kind
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I don't think kindness is at all mutually exclusive with knowledge and truth
To be clear I didn't mean "enforcing kindness" as in like forcing everyone to engage in a specific way or they're banned for not being nice enough
The big corporate platforms are, in a lot of ways, designed for hostility conflict and toxicity. Because they're designed for engagement, and anger drives engagement like nothing else possibly can. Facebook did internal studies and found their algorithm made people miserable, and then kept it that way because with respect profit, it was a great design.
I think we should be thoughtful about the mechanics of the platforms we're building and whether they incentivize people to lash out at eachother, or incentivizing healthy social spaces.
I'm not here in support of some dystopian "be positive or else" insincere niceness platform. But I do think it's worthwhile to shape the culture of the space we spend time in intentionally
I wanna enjoy being here. I'm here in pursuit of worthwhile, sincere interactions with other human beings, not shitty internet flamewars where nothing is gained and everyone walks away more bitter and angryThat’s a positive perspective.
I’ve seen a lot of that in leftists spaces lately, way more cautious of it now.
Engagement may not be great but it wins. Imo fediverse needs engagement to live long term but maybe doesn’t need toxicity for it, but addiction is inherently a little toxic.
Yes we should be thoughtful, not everyone is unfortunately.
How fucking dare you seek genuine humanity online.
lolI think letting people say anything (with obvious bannable exceptions like abuse, threats of violence, death, rape, and cp) helps, that fact checking or being wrong should not be bannable, and that people should be given more ways to conflict with each other but in a way that spurns creative debate not pure hostility but that pure hostility has real value to show people whether or not they should change and shouldn’t be shut down outright. Like commenting ‘fuck you’ should be allowed anywhere but not ‘fuck you go kys’ because it’s destructive not constructive.
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There it is
But if someone didn’t search your comment history, they wouldn’t know from context, that you seem to enjoy telling others what they should and shouldn’t be posting and judging them for being obnoxious and insulting while doing exactly that elsewhere.
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I think it's worth being warry of making other peoples misery your own entertainment, that's a really good way to end up habitually pursuing cruelty
What you're describing sounds like Ben Shapiro to me. Scoring cheap points through argumentative tactic rather than actual merit of stance. Personally I see more value in legitimate exchange of ideas where involved parties can all walk away with a more well rounded perspective.
I see debate as an opportunity to learn from and teach others, not about dunking on people in pursuit of humiliating them
Just my two cents.
Lol my argument automatically has no merit without you hearing any of it. That's like bigotry or something.
I guess Ben Shapiro argues with people that aren't media trained to make his stance look better, do you want me to say people Ben Shapiro argues make some awesome argument all the time without exception?
I'll teach you that it's not on me to make your arguments, get your evidence. I just put it on myself to communicate my arguments and poke holes in other people's arguments
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I agree, and like with many of the culture issues we have challenges with, I think the extent to which Lemmy is a echo chamber or political and philosophical monoculture really sets us up to struggle with those kinds of problems
You're not wrong though. Even I sometimes find myself falling into it, it's hard. And a lot of people believe following the behavior their anger drives them to isn't just okay, it's actually a good think and combats the problems they're angry about. Personally I think that usually couldn't be any further from the truth
Regardless, I hope you have a good one
Lol so you agree with this post I made just not the other
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We do not need all the engagement. Just engagement that most lemming users enjoy. The comments of spam bots for example are also good for engagement but are not enjoyable content. I personally hate being pissed of online cause it caries into my real life and people in general also do so most people come to this general idea that they don't piss anyone of and expect other people to come to the same conclusion of not pissing anyone of. This leads to a less toxic environment which allows them to spend more of their time and energy on more productive stuff. Cause at the end of the day needlessly making other people feel bad for your own entertainment is a downwards spiral if everyone's doing it.
So all your saying is don't engage with bots (even though it's fine because bots can get you information quickly), and that you can't ignore negative people online.
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Lol my argument automatically has no merit without you hearing any of it. That's like bigotry or something.
I guess Ben Shapiro argues with people that aren't media trained to make his stance look better, do you want me to say people Ben Shapiro argues make some awesome argument all the time without exception?
I'll teach you that it's not on me to make your arguments, get your evidence. I just put it on myself to communicate my arguments and poke holes in other people's arguments
my argument automatically has no merit without you hearing any of it
I did read both of your comments in full and think about them, but if you have more specific thoughts on why you hold the perspective you do I'd be open to hearing them
(full disclosure though, it might take me a bit to get back to you- with how much I've engaged with this thread I'm starting to kinda run out of social energy 
)I guess Ben Shapiro argues with people that aren't media trained to make his stance look better, do you want me to say people Ben Shapiro argues make some awesome argument all the time without exception?
Its a little hard to follow exactly what you mean towards the end, I think there are a couple typos, but no. I just personally see a distinction between productive conversation and making a game of humiliating people buy talking circles around them regardless of the merits of their arguments.
I can't know that you exactly meant the latter, but it's kind of a spectrum and it did sound like you were advocating the idea that it's appropriate to take joy in making people feel foolish for their inability to argue as well as you. I think there's a big difference between the merits of a stance and someone's ability to argue them. That's why I expressed I disagreed. And that's why I made the connection to Ben shapio, he's really good at arguing, and makes sport of trying to make people look bad when they make the sort of arguments I personally agree with.
I'll teach you that it's not on me to make your arguments, get your evidence. I just put it on myself to communicate my arguments and poke holes in other people's arguments
I think I see argument as much less of a zero sum game than you do. I don't wanna score points, I wanna learn about what people think and teach them why I think differently.
You're not wrong to point out flaws in peoples arguments, or to expect them to make their case for themselves, but that's not the same thing as treating it like a game to win. I think the former is appropriate and healthy, I think the latter is destructive and doesn't actually accomplish anything
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I can understand your anger, I'm in the same boat, but I really wasn't asking you to do that
I was asking you to be kind to the people here. That you share this space with.I wish I had left this list of examples in the original post where I had them at first
- Compliment people's art and ask about their process
- Teach people about something you're knowledgeable on
- Give constructive criticism on peoples projects when it's welcome
- Thank people for posting things you're glad you got to see, tell them you enjoyed it
- Tell people you're glad they're here
- Tell people you hope they have a good day
I moved them to a comment because I have a bad habit of being really long winded and I wanted people to actually read the whole post, but I think moving them and leaving "try to approach people you disagree with with curiosity rather than hostility" prompted a lot of folks to interpret what I was saying as "tell the Nazis who want to debate your humanity that all their views are swell, actually"
What I meant is exactly what didn't happen in our interaction with eachother. I'm a queer leftist whose humanity is debated by the right. You don't completely agree with me and that's okay, but I'm not deserving of your hostility.
We may not see things exactly the same way but I care just as much about combating fascism as you do; everyone I love save for some of my family is a minority with a target on their back in the eyes of the current administration.
I wish I could have made it more clear what I meant. I've gotten lots of comments more or less insinuating that I'm encouraging we all complicit in the rise of fascism. And it's not a big percentage, but I'm still a human being who hears 12 people forcefully telling me that, and it doesn't feel great.
That's not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating that when you don't completely see eye to eye with someone, you ask them what they mean (and also lots of other things, but I feel like thats the specific idea in question).
WE don't see exactly eye to eye. You and other commenters here don't see exactly eye to eye. And that's okay. Being willing to talk with them or me about what they think and why doesn't help the Nazis.
(Like I said I'm really long winded
sorry for the wall of text, I know it's not even the first one I've replied with to you specifically )It's specifically the "don't call people Russian trolls/bots"
There are a lot of Right wingers sympathetic to fascist countries right now, and it doesn't matter if it's a troll farm or a regular person pushing hateful ideology it's harmful and unacceptable either way.
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"Tankies"
The irony with this is that Lemmy was founded by communists and it follows a lot of communist principles.
Tankies aren't communist.
Authoritarianism is right wing.
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The fediverse is small, and thats both a blessing and a curse - one of its several blessings is that in a smaller space we all individually have a bigger impact on what the culture of this space is like.
On this comm (and on lemmy broadly) there's a lot of discussion about how to grow the fediverse, what to improve, but an easy thing you can do for the fediverse is right in front of us-
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Be kind
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Ask people what they think, and why
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Approach folks you disagree with with curiosity rather than hostility
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Engage sincerely
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Ask yourself if there's something nice you can say
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Make this small space worth being in
A platform lives or dies by what's available on said platform and often we have this conversation in the context of "content" or posts - and we may never have as much content as reddit does. But content and posts aren't the only thing this kind of platform offers- it also offers people. It offers community, and human interaction.
Culture and community is lemmy and the fediverse's biggest differentiator, and we all have a role to play in shaping the culture of this space.
The biggest thing you can do to help the fediverse is make it a place worth being.
This sounds dumb.
- Ask people what they think, and why
Why thats none of my business? Presumptuous to think someone should submit themselves to your inquiries.
- Ask yourself if there's something nice you can say
Better yet, ask someone else because you can't be trusted, obviously.
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It's specifically the "don't call people Russian trolls/bots"
There are a lot of Right wingers sympathetic to fascist countries right now, and it doesn't matter if it's a troll farm or a regular person pushing hateful ideology it's harmful and unacceptable either way.
Personally I don't see calling people Russian bots/trolls or accepting harmful behaviour as the only available options.
I don't think the former is at all productive or helps anything, and the latter is completely unacceptable. But those aren't our only options when we decide how we want to engage with people we disagree with
and again, fascists are not the only people with whom disagreements happen on lemmy. We're literally disagreeing right now, if you called me a Russian bot I think that would be silly and unproductive. That's literally my whole point. Not everyone you disagree with is arguing in bad faith
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my argument automatically has no merit without you hearing any of it
I did read both of your comments in full and think about them, but if you have more specific thoughts on why you hold the perspective you do I'd be open to hearing them
(full disclosure though, it might take me a bit to get back to you- with how much I've engaged with this thread I'm starting to kinda run out of social energy )I guess Ben Shapiro argues with people that aren't media trained to make his stance look better, do you want me to say people Ben Shapiro argues make some awesome argument all the time without exception?
Its a little hard to follow exactly what you mean towards the end, I think there are a couple typos, but no. I just personally see a distinction between productive conversation and making a game of humiliating people buy talking circles around them regardless of the merits of their arguments.
I can't know that you exactly meant the latter, but it's kind of a spectrum and it did sound like you were advocating the idea that it's appropriate to take joy in making people feel foolish for their inability to argue as well as you. I think there's a big difference between the merits of a stance and someone's ability to argue them. That's why I expressed I disagreed. And that's why I made the connection to Ben shapio, he's really good at arguing, and makes sport of trying to make people look bad when they make the sort of arguments I personally agree with.
I'll teach you that it's not on me to make your arguments, get your evidence. I just put it on myself to communicate my arguments and poke holes in other people's arguments
I think I see argument as much less of a zero sum game than you do. I don't wanna score points, I wanna learn about what people think and teach them why I think differently.
You're not wrong to point out flaws in peoples arguments, or to expect them to make their case for themselves, but that's not the same thing as treating it like a game to win. I think the former is appropriate and healthy, I think the latter is destructive and doesn't actually accomplish anything
️Yeah the merit of a stance is different than someone's ability to argue. They're different concepts.
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This sounds dumb.
- Ask people what they think, and why
Why thats none of my business? Presumptuous to think someone should submit themselves to your inquiries.
- Ask yourself if there's something nice you can say
Better yet, ask someone else because you can't be trusted, obviously.
The first was in reference to when someone expresses an idea you don't understand or a perspective you don't share, and the latter was about the tendency to just keep scrolling and say nothing even when you like a post or comment, but I can see why you interpreted them that way.
In my experience when someone is expressing their thoughts they generally take kindly to folks asking them about why they see things the way they do
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You do realize that there are members of marginalized groups who have been elected as republicans
Like there's black republicans
Is voting for them 'blatantly racist'?
If you overuse language it loses some of its meaningWhen you need to resort to "but I have black friends" to defend racism, you've lost.
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Lol so you agree with this post I made just not the other
Oh, I hadn't realized it was the same username! I've replied to like a billion people on this thread, the only usernames I really absorbed are the couple of folks I recognized from prior interactions
But yes, I'd say I agree very much with the idea you expressed in this comment chain and generally disagree with what you said in the other comment exchange. And that's okay! We can share some amount of common ground even if we don't agree on everything
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You have been lied to
instance checks out
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Gotcha, that sucks, but I'm happy you made the journey over to Lemmy!
And oh, no I only just started using it more recently. I don't think the topical kind was ever used by folks who thought it did something for covid anyway. I know there are also oral treatments for rosacea, but I'm not sure if oral antiparasitics are every used, since it's just on the skin of your face that matters.
It also only got a generic over the counter version more recently, if I remember right, but now you can get it as a lotion that's labeled for lice, but for some people it really helps with rosacea (rosacea is one of those really complicated multiple causitive factor health issues that can manifest in serveral different ways that we still only kinda sorta partially understand. Demodex mites seem to play a role in some people but not others, there's a lot of trial and error)
The perscription version sometimes perscribed for rosacea is called Soolantra I think, its really expensive so an over the counter generic is kindof a godsend for folks whose insurance won't cover it
I had no idea about all of that. I really learned something today! Already really like Lemmy and the Fediverse, I feel like most people here put some extra thought and effort into their posts and comments. I've used Reddit since I was 18 and it used to be the same, but as its popularity grew I guess the "wrong" kind of people started joining and participating. I think that's bound to happen with anything that gets really big. I've described some social justice movements the same way, where you had people who genuinely cared in the beginning but eventually as the movement becomes a trend the values and sentiments gets simpler, dumber and eventually unrecognizable from what the initial goal was.
By the way I think there's a little birthday cake next to my username because I created the user today lol.
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Sometimes they literally just are. Not seen it on Lemmy but on Reddit I definitely interacted with users, age under 1 year, all suspiciously pro-Putin. It's rare and I'm looking for it, but still.
It's not rare at all. These people are massive contributers to political/tech communities, thousand plus posts in a year. You'll see them spamming posts about Israel, denying genocide in Ukraine, and misreprsenting to outright lying if you call them on it. All over lemmy.world and lemmy.ml.
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Great post.
To add to this, not resorting to calling others tankies or Russian bots when you have differing opinions, especially around politics.
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I had no idea about all of that. I really learned something today! Already really like Lemmy and the Fediverse, I feel like most people here put some extra thought and effort into their posts and comments. I've used Reddit since I was 18 and it used to be the same, but as its popularity grew I guess the "wrong" kind of people started joining and participating. I think that's bound to happen with anything that gets really big. I've described some social justice movements the same way, where you had people who genuinely cared in the beginning but eventually as the movement becomes a trend the values and sentiments gets simpler, dumber and eventually unrecognizable from what the initial goal was.
By the way I think there's a little birthday cake next to my username because I created the user today lol.
Ohhh, yeah I meant the anniversary of your time on Lemmy, I didn't realize that's today because you just made your account. Welcome!! Lol.
And yeah it's definitely a pattern unfortunately
Lemmy is far from perfect, but it has a chance to be something better than we've had before and I think that's pretty cool -
When you need to resort to "but I have black friends" to defend racism, you've lost.
I'm not resorting to that.
I'm not saying that.
I'm saying that the idea that voting Republican is inherently racist, is wrong.
This really isn't that complicated.
