Windows doesn't "just work"
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Yeah, I am very familiar with Debian on servers. It works great on servers. Have experienced with all kinds of stability stages regarding Debian.
However, Desktop Debian usually does not work. Then I switch to the one, which should work the easiest, so Ubuntu or some derivative. And this usually still needs tons of troubleshooting over hours to make it work to a minimum standard...
Everything Debian based is an absolute clusterfuck in my experience. I mainly use Fedora or Arch, never had a problem with them.
Every single time I've tried using anything Debian based it's been a shitshow. Maybe that's the source of your issues. -
I've tried many many laptops. Don't remember which ones, but they there the most sock common, you can probably imagine. For example, the last one is a budget acer with a Radeon discreet card or something. No NVIDIA. Installed Lubuntu on it. Absolutely standard installation.
Worked for some while. Then it stopped working. Whenever I booted up the laptop, the screen went black after a second on login screen. Researching for hours and hours did not help to find a solution.Funnily enough, I only installed Lubuntu in the first place, because I tried Debian Stable before that and that one didn't boot at all. It did not work even once. So, I had switched to Lubuntu...
This is one representative example for how those great Linux installations always go in my cases.
Again, this did not happen once or twice. This happens almost every single time I try to install Linux on any normal stock hardware, whatsoever.The only time I had no trouble installing Linux is on my current laptop (tablet, but like a laptop) device. But do you know why? Because I reserched for hours for a device, which fits my needs and is very compatible with Linux. That's why. I had to research tons of hours to find a device, which is actually Linux compatible.
That said, not even this device works fine. Actually, the opposite. It is dangerous to your health. Yeah, I'm not joking, I literally mean it.
One time, I started Firefox on it and the screen started flickering really hard. Couldn't control or fix it.
If my friend would've been there, he would've gotten a seizure 100%, since he has photosensitive epilepsy. Linux is literally dangerous to your health.Windows might be annoying and all... But it doesn't give anyone literal seizures.
Have you tried anything not Debian based?
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Have you tried anything not Debian based?
Well, a very long time ago, I tried plenty of distributions on old hardware and that worked enough, so I could at least boot. But yeah, older hardware was always easier for Linux.
At some point I switched to the ones, which are most likely to succeed. Ubuntu is the biggest one out there and should work the best, with the most support and acceptance across the globe.
If not even Ubuntu works on those devices, then what will work, out of the box?
Besides, Ubuntu has already diverted enough from Debian, that I wouldn't really put them in the same basket, at all, anymore...
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Everything Debian based is an absolute clusterfuck in my experience. I mainly use Fedora or Arch, never had a problem with them.
Every single time I've tried using anything Debian based it's been a shitshow. Maybe that's the source of your issues. -
I pity you. I can think of perhaps 2 people I've ever known that I hate. You hate someone who irritates you on social media. You must live a sad, lonely little life.
Thank you for your pity, I shall bask in your magnanimity henceforth, oh superior one. Thou hast no equal on this space rock.
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You don’t have to get rid of all the stuff, it doesn’t break the system like missing sounds or whatnot. Some of its even helpful like weather and news. Plus it isn’t that hard to make a Microsoft account, don’t you need one anyway for Minecraft? And since when do you need drivers for an SSD, don’t those usually work out of the box?
Yep exactly, since when do we need a driver for the nvme controller
at least on Linux it works out of the box.
Apps on windows do break the system to some extent by using resources. As a developer I think that KISS is a paramount principle and waste is bad. Account = waste, unneeded 3d viewer = waste, notepad with subscription ad = uber waste. -
This isn't a Windows issue - this is an Office issue
Oh, don't get me started on Windows issues. Lol. But the only reason we use Windows at work is for Office, otherwise Tue CAD software has a Linux version yet runs better.
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Historically, yeah. Nowadays (as in the last 2-3 years) I don't really see many issues. It's fairly solid in my experience.
And let's be honest, Windows is a nightmare as well on many laptops. If you wipe them and start from scratch, there is a non zero chance that you'll have to source like half the drivers manually.
To get to a working state you're very likely to be fine. They're all using Intel wifi and some elan touchpad, so the basics work well enough to bootstrap up to your vendors website.
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As somebody who works in IT at a Windows-only environment, I know exactly what you mean.
I have to fight with Windows on a weekly basis. Driver issues, firmware issues, software crashes/lockups, performance issues, etc etc.
Just this week, I have two users experiencing issues with their monitors. Identical enterprise grade laptops, identical drivers, identical docking stations, all totally up to date on Windows 11. Their old Windows 10 computers worked fine. Still trying to figure out what's wrong.
The Windows 24H2 update broke my Bluetooth audio, the sound is completely messed up and makes the system lag a bit. Uninstalled the update, Bluetooth works. The update automatically installed itself again after a few weeks and broke it again but I can no longer uninstall it for some reason.
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The Windows 24H2 update broke my Bluetooth audio, the sound is completely messed up and makes the system lag a bit. Uninstalled the update, Bluetooth works. The update automatically installed itself again after a few weeks and broke it again but I can no longer uninstall it for some reason.
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To get to a working state you're very likely to be fine. They're all using Intel wifi and some elan touchpad, so the basics work well enough to bootstrap up to your vendors website.
The kind of people who would install Linux on their PC are the same people who'll reinstall Windows to remove all the bloat manufacturers put on their laptops by default.
Whether or not the basics work well enough to go scavenge for drivers is irrelevant. The fact that I have to do it means it's no better than modern Linux in that regard. It'll boot and in 90% of cases it'll just work, when it doesn't you'll need to install some drivers.
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Well, a very long time ago, I tried plenty of distributions on old hardware and that worked enough, so I could at least boot. But yeah, older hardware was always easier for Linux.
At some point I switched to the ones, which are most likely to succeed. Ubuntu is the biggest one out there and should work the best, with the most support and acceptance across the globe.
If not even Ubuntu works on those devices, then what will work, out of the box?
Besides, Ubuntu has already diverted enough from Debian, that I wouldn't really put them in the same basket, at all, anymore...
I've found it to be just the opposite. I've had so many more issues on Ubuntu and Debian derivatives than any other distro out there. Both in terms of hardware support and stability, ironically.
Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better, otherwise Windows would be good.
aptis atrocious and will nuke your system every once in a while if you're not careful when installing even the most trivial packages.- Snaps are objectively worse than any other packaging format.
- The software is never up to date and you have to go scavenge for drivers and updated kernels otherwise stuff is just broken.
There are much greener pastures out there, even if a little more niche.
Arch if for tinkerers, no doubt, but Fedora is just as simple to use as Ubuntu. The support is great since it's backed by Red Hat and has a sizeable following. I never had issues finding what I was looking for. The only caveat is that it's for newer hardware; not cutting edge mind you, but it may not be the best choice for a 2009 laptop. Anything that's at most 10 years old though I'd expect to just work honestly, maybe with minimal tinkering. -
What makes SUsE so good for you?
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The kind of people who would install Linux on their PC are the same people who'll reinstall Windows to remove all the bloat manufacturers put on their laptops by default.
Whether or not the basics work well enough to go scavenge for drivers is irrelevant. The fact that I have to do it means it's no better than modern Linux in that regard. It'll boot and in 90% of cases it'll just work, when it doesn't you'll need to install some drivers.
Why is what you're saying about Linux any different from what I'm saying about windows? Once you get to network it's straightforward and a non issue.
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Why is what you're saying about Linux any different from what I'm saying about windows? Once you get to network it's straightforward and a non issue.
Right, that's exactly my point. There's no argument to be made about Linux "not being ready" in terms of hardware support because in the worst case scenario it's not any worse than Windows, and those worst case scenarios are few and far between.
Now, in terms of software parity, sure. There's quite a bit of stuff that won't run on Wine yet and doesn't have alternatives, but this discussion was purely about hardware support and that's solid nowadays.
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Yeah when I see people say that gaming on Linux "isn't there yet" I have to wonder how long it's been since they've tried. And people who install Windows on their Steam Deck? Don't get it.
people who install Windows on their Steam Deck?
I see this way too often, nearly half of the 2nd hand Decks sold here have Windows
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Mac os is pretty bad with that bullshit too
I had to set up an app on Wine + macOS, the app spawns bg processes that have a window (on Wine, not on Windows) for some reason and each time that happens the main window app loses focus. Couldn't solve it. On Linux + Plasma Wayland the problem is inverse ie. even the main window doesn't have an icon on taskbar, if you minimize it you can restore with only Alt + Tab.
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Level1tech was reviewing the Ryzen 9950X/9900X and he noted how performance on Windows was wildly inconsistent depending on peculiar settings such as sidestepping security features and marking apps to run as administrator (aka also sidestepping windows security features) yet on Linux you can get better performance via Proton OOTB.
Linux has its quirks too but people kid themselves when they convince themselves that the dozens of weird tasks and apps and tweaks they make to Windows are "plug and play" compared to Linux, which in my experience has been way less tweaking.
The main tweaks I've done on linux usually include installing ROG-control-center (optional laptop faff) or cryotweaks on Steamdeck (which just sets some sensible options already enabled on most distros)
Now imagine Linux with
mitigations=off -
Wifi works great on every distro I tried
BCM4360 doesn't work reliably for me even to this day
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Now imagine Linux with
mitigations=offThat's the thing, though. I don't have to turn off mitigations on Linux. And I don't even think it's possible to disable the very same mitigations in Windows - Windows itself is just a super inconsistent platform for software benchmarking.
In fact, whenever I've found benchmarks it's not that much of a benefit, especially as the mitigations get more optimised with time.
